Cheap tow-pigs: Ford vs. GM

curtis73 said:

Now totally off topic... I remembered seeing this and drooling over it.  Years ago, Toyota did a Tundra dually concept with an 8.0L Hino diesel in it.

http://www.trucktrend.com/cool-trucks/0804dp-2008-toyota-tundra-diesel/

I like that way more than I should.  Especially how they carried the extra fender width all the way to the back of the bed and the taillights.  Makes the dually look a bit more natural. 

In reply to curtis73 :

Dodge (and, more generally, Chrysler) always seemed like a company that was willing to take engineering gambles.  And for that, they always appealed to me.  Some of it panned out, and some of it didn't, but the world was generally a better place for all of it.  

Now, the '92 5.9 I had did have a 5 speed MT behind it, which I loved.  A friend of mine had an automatic truck- basically a 727 with some sort of overdrive- and it was problematic.  The 727 has a reputation as a bulletproof trans- much like Ford's C6- but when you bolted it to a big diesel...well, yeah, like you said, it was a gasser trans.  The E4OD was basically a C6 with an OD, wasn't it?  

I really like the tundra in the half tons its too bad they never made them 3/4ton or bigger

volvoclearinghouse said:

The 727 has a reputation as a bulletproof trans- much like Ford's C6- but when you bolted it to a big diesel...well, yeah, like you said, it was a gasser trans.  The E4OD was basically a C6 with an OD, wasn't it?  

The 727 was bulletproof.  It was more or less Chrysler's version of the TH400.  The diesel killed it because of the relatively small diameter clutches.  They would get overcome by the torque and slip.  Chrysler upped the line pressures for the Cummins but it didn't do the trick.

TH350 + OD = 700r4.  700r4 + electronic control = 4L60E/4L65E

TH400 + OD = 4L80E/4L85E.  (there was never a non-electric HD 4 speed)

C4 + OD = AOD.  AOD + electronic control + 4R70W (loosely)

C6 + OD = E4OD.  E4OD's upgrade was the 4R100

904 + OD = A500/40RE, then subsequent upgrades to 42, and 44RE

727 + OD = A518/46RE, then subsequent upgrades to 47 and 48RE

Its really a shame about those dark years for Mopar.  I always liked their transmission design with the OD in the back.  It underdrives the rest of the trans unlike Ford and GM which overdrives the whole thing.

In reply to Curtis :

That's a great reference Curtis, thanks!

Interesting thread. I started getting into tow vehicles after I decided a couple of years ago to tow a car to several national autocross events. I already had an 04 Navigator 4wd with the 5.4l DOHC V8 and I got an 18' open trailer and towed an S2000 to three events from CT. One in DC and two in Ohio. The truck is quite possibly one of the worst newer trucks in terms of gas mileage, when not towing I can barely eke out 16mpg on the highway, so I was expecting the towing MPG to be abysmal, but it averaged around 11-12mpg. Helped that there were not too many hills to climb and that we probably were not towing much more than 4500lbs. The trailer had brakes on all four wheels and I got a brake controller. It already had a transmission cooler from the factory. The truck was surprisingly good overall at pulling. I mean, it would have been nice to have more guts on some longer hills, but it wasn't really ever a problem. I think the main thing I should have done was get a weight distributing hitch. Not sure why I didn't, but given the amount of weight we were towing and the GVWR of the truck is around 7500 it would have been a good idea. There were a couple of times out to Ohio through some higher altitude areas where crosswinds made the trailer sway a bit and it was a little nerve racking.

This isn't a recommendation to get a Navigator obviously, just my experience. Although it was relatively cheap at the time, but that time was around when gas was $5 a gallon so I got a decent deal on it.

I did recently have to replace all the brake lines and the trans cooler line since they all rusted out. Yay. It's paid for though, so I'll run it into the ground.

I got rid of the trailer this year as my current autox car is comfortable enough to drive to events and I run on streets, but now I have this itch to get a really good tow vehicle just in case I want to get back into the towing game at some point.

In reply to Harvey :

Is the Navigator independent rear suspension?  I think it may be.  You really want a stick, solid rear axle for towing.  IRS vehicles end up with pretty nasty camber (usually) when towing big loads, that can cause undesirable tire wear, among other things.  

rslifkin said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I think some of that difference in lifespan is that outside of the old Detroit 2 strokes, most big HD diesels are I6s (or V12, V16, etc. if you go big enough).  I think it's more that nobody has had a reason to build a really heavy duty V8 diesel and not that they can't.  

I hear that argument a lot.  I guess people forget about the folks from Allentown.  Mack built some of most bad assed class-8 truck engines to be had using the V8 architecture.  Ever heard of an E9 Magnum 500 (not the wheel)?  These are legends among the road-train guys in Oz.  

Scania did the same thing over across the pond.

Cat 3208 seemed like a decent V8 as well.  

volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to Harvey :

Is the Navigator independent rear suspension?  I think it may be.  You really want a stick, solid rear axle for towing.  IRS vehicles end up with pretty nasty camber (usually) when towing big loads, that can cause undesirable tire wear, among other things.  

I had an '04 Expedition Eddie Bauer for a little while (which has the same innards as the Navigator).  As a tow vehicle it had awesome brakes and the IRS was fitted with self leveling air shocks.  More tongue weight meant the rear got stiffer and kept camber the same.

Cat 3408.  Yes I had forgotten about that one.  3208 was a medium duty engine with a meh reputation.

I think we're all wise enough to know that physics is physics.  There are certain engines and architectures that were amazing and some that were crappy.  There are inherent benefits to some engine layouts and drawbacks to all.  Just because Brand X made some awesome V8s doesn't mean that Brand Y didn't make amazing I6s.

Engines are air compressors.  As a by-product, they convert chemical energy to kinetic energy.  The either do it well or poorly, or they do it for a long time or for a short time.  Or they do it for any combination of the above.

I don't trust a Rover engine past 25k, but I would trust a 150k 1ZZ-FE.  The track record of one specific I6 doesn't mean that it is better or worse than one specific V8.

Tow pig acquired! In the end it's not the ideal vehicle, but in the end I think it'll do everything I need, and at $1600 not break the bank. The fact it's 25-years old and can be titled as an antique for a 1-time $75 fee with no restrictions on use is a plus too. 

Im thinking "Papa Smurf" for a name, but I'm open to suggestions. 

Yes, those are dubs(22"s apparently), no they won't be staying. I actually scrolled past the ad a few times today because of the wheels, but once I read the ad & saw the rest of the pics I decided it was worth contacting the seller. 

Here are a few interior shots. 

so, what did $1600 buy? A 2-owner 153k 92 1/2-ton Suburban, with a rebuilt trans, tuneup, new thermostat & serpentine belt. A hitch, presently removed, but included w/hardware. A/C blows cold front & rear, and heat is hot. 

Here's what it needs offhand:

It pulls right under braking & the brakes are soft & spongy. The abs and brake lights are also both on. 

The steering is vague & wanders, and the PS doesn't work much at low speeds. 

There's a bit of oil on top of the intake on the driver's side. Not sure if it's coming from the valve cover or intake. It wasn't worse after driving it. 

I heard a clunk a couple times while accelerating from a stop on the ~25mi drive home. Need to investigate if it's the u-joints or something else. 

The driver's window only goes up/down part way, and with assistance. The passengers mirror glass is gone, but the mirror assembly is ok. The temp gauge is inop, apparently he did something to the sensor wire when he replaced the thermostat. 

So nothing major or expensive(yet). 

Cool, glad to see an end to this discussion. The wait was killing me. Seems plenty clean and once you get some stock wheels it won't be totally embarrassing. I wish old burbs like that we're still available in Missouri, they are rusty and have horrible interiors by now.

In reply to singleslammer :

It was really incredible looking up underneath & seeing how clean and dry it is. 

I was shocked that this is the factory color too. From the ad pics above I thought it was a bad/old plastidip job. 

Good score (minus the wheels). I've got an 88 Silverado 2500, way over 300k miles. I use it as an alternate DD, and road trip vehicle. Tough trucks. 

What's stock size on those? 15s? 16?

It might be me being dumb but I'd go a size up from stock if you ever get the bug up your butt that "hey this thing needs bigger/better brakes for some reason"

I know I currently have that bug because someone keeps overloading the bed of my dakota and the drums out back really don't like the hills heading to the scrapyard with 1400 pounds in the back...

I do always like reading pages of diesel talk from people who know more than I do, much more entertaining than the normal responses of [insert brand] is E36 M3 you need to get [insert brand].

In reply to Grizz :

My 88 had 15's, not sure what this would have had. 

Gotta love old Chevy parts prices - I can get new front rotors w/hubs, calipers, guide pins, hoses & pads for $150. I need to crawl around it before I order parts, so I might not need any of that, but it's good to know a whole rebuild is so cheap. 

It has six hole wheels correct?  Should be easy to find some take offs in any size you want from 16 to 20"  The old five hole wheels on my 2001 van are getting harder to find.

My neighbor had a truck like that for sale a while back, same mileage, white with gray interior, nice shape except for a little rust and 4wd.  I think it went cheap, I stayed away on purpose so I wouldn't buy it.

Nice GMT400.  Did he give you any records for the tranny overhaul?  Based on those dubs, I'd guess the answer to my question would be "no", but it is possible we've stumbled across some weird subreddit of the automotive world who keeps meticulous records AND had atrocious taste in wheels.  

And yes, part of the reason my wife and I decided on a 'Burb for her mommy-mobile was the dirt cheap prices of parts, plus the fact that any mechanic anywhere can and will work on it.  

Now, before you tow anything with it, fix the brakes, install some Hawk HP towing brake pads up front, and plumb in the giganticest transmission cooler you can find.  There's kits to do a rear disc conversion.  My brother did one on his '93 pickup, and loves it.  Recommend.  

2WD it looks like, correct?  

In reply to akylekoz :

These are 5-lug. I checked Tire Rack and the stock tire size would have been 235/75-15, though I'd consider 16" wheels if I found them cheap enough. I actually stumbled across this set of horrible 90's aluminum 15" wheels for $100, so I may check them out.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

No records, but I tend to believe him. It shifts nice and the trans was clean underneath. It was a bit odd - he was probably in his 50's, had a nice house, ran a lawncare business, and his other vehicles were stock. He even expressed some regret in putting these wheels on the Suburban.

Thanks for the Hawk towing pad recommendation, I wasn't aware that was a thing. I need to check it out more in daylight and figure out what I got myself into, but I presume it just has the stock trans cooler, so I'm definitely planning to upgrade before towing the Vette(of course I still need a trailer for that too...). Oh, and a brake controller too.

Yes, it's 2wd. 4wd would have been nice for trips to IL in winter, but I'll just put some snow-rated tires on whatever wheels I end up with.

Speaking of - does anybody have any idea what these 22's w/tires might be worth?

I put this one in in my truck, with the in-line thermostat. 

Ok, can't paste with my phone. Anyway it's a true-cool 40k. Pulled the running temp of the engine down about 20 percent after running the fluid through the radiator first. 

On a hot Florida day after a full day of driving, I can still touch the cooler on the outlet side. Down to ambient temperature, not even warm. Haven't towed anything heavy yet. 

I ran the Hawk HP Superduty pads on my Jeep up front for a while.  They work well, but they can be a little weak in cold weather.  They bit really well when hot and pretty well at normal summer temps.  They eat rotors badly though.  I went through 2 sets of front rotors (down to minimum thickness) to a set of pads and the pads weren't gone yet.  And they're kinda dusty (as much rotor dust as pad dust, I think).  They were quiet though, despite Hawk warning otherwise.  I ran HPSs with them in the back, as they didn't make the superduty pads for the rear.  

I replaced them with a set of Carbotech AX6 (on all 4 corners).  More expensive and I had to wait 10 days for them to ship (pretty sure they had to make me a set), but they're much better pads.  Better cold bite than the Hawks and even better hot bite.  So far they seem much easier on rotors and the dust is easier to clean off (which is good, because they dust like stock BMW brakes, notably more than the Hawks).  They do squeal / screech a little sometimes under light braking at low speeds, but nothing awful. 

The Carbotechs take more heat the Hawks without fading too.  And they're the only pads that have ever made the tiny single piston calipers and 11" rotors under the Jeep feel confident / strong when stepping on the pedal (and they can easily lock up my 240 treadwear 255s on a warm summer day with a good lean on the pedal).  

I'll also second the big Tru-cool trans coolers.  I run the 2nd biggest of the Tru-cool Max coolers on the Jeep with an inline thermostat (160*) and the in-radiator cooler bypassed.  I've never seen the trans pan temp over 170 since I put that cooler on.  

Thanks guys, I'll see what Tru-cool has that'll fit mine!

BTW I started a build thread/ownership log here for it.