daydreaming - cheap turbo drag car

OK, I need to ask the best and the brightest. You'd be surprised how many people try and work out this combo, but come up with a 50K bill for parts. They're all trying to run 6's and are definitely not GRMers.

I want to make up a turbo V8 and go drag racing. I am a big drag racing fan already, but I know very little about turbos. So help me out.

For a 350 size V8 engine, twins? I want megasquirt, and am willing to run an automatic with a very high stall converter and a manual valvebody - so no worries about driveability, although it will be streetable.

So, turbo, megasquirt 350-360ish V8 automatic. I'd also like to run E85. the next question is, streetability nonwithstanding, what compression and boost can I run on E85 and an intercooler?

Is there a table of compression vs boost pressure vs engine size or something for E85? Any guesses? I'd like to run some junkyard or heavy equipment turbos to be really cheap. Any other ideas?

Educate me!

Thanks -Brian

Less than $10,000 with car is easy using new components, $2010.00 with good shopping ;)

Mix a 5.8L roller (JY block, balanced rot assy, Econo 9:1 pistons good rings $1000.00) F303 cam ($200.00) modified GT40P heads (port, head studs opened to 1/2", 1.7:1 Cobra rockers, TFS springs $750.00) , add upside down aftermarket shorty 5.0L headers facing forward ($100.00), with two T3/T4 hybrid turbos ($950.00) , A GT40/Lightning lower intake ($149.00) with box upper with twin 50mm throttle inlets ($200.00), Mount the turbos in front of each head and run the charged side straight to the intake with no charge cooler. Ford E85 injectors modified by an injector service company ($350.00) Billet fuel rail ($200.00) Megasquirt w/ sensors ($500.00) Dual blow off valves ($400.00) 3" dual short pipes ($25.00)

Power won't be the problem, the drivetrain will. Figure on some money into the trans, converter, driveshaft, rear, axles, etc if you plan for it to hold together for a bit.

A sbc on even low boost can make silly power. You can run stock compression with E85 and around the same boost level as 1-1.5pt lower on 93 octane. Figure E85 has an effective octane rating of 110 and go from there.

As far as junkyard or heavy equip turbos, sizing for low boost on a big motor is sort of tough with 'cheap' parts. A pair of smaller T4's would work as long as they're identical. Holset HX35's could work as well (Dodge Ram/Cummins turbo) but they're not as happy at low boost. A motor this big puts you out of other cheap options like T25's and T3's that are common on small displacement 4cyls.

Oh and you won't even run 6's for 50k!

If you are looking at a drag car, big single is the way to go. Easier to package and flows more. 8lbs of boost will make for a very fast motor. Spend some money on the bottom end (forged everything, splayed caps), it will be worth it.

You can 4G63T swap a gutted Colt and go just as fast for less money and aggravation.

93gsxturbo wrote: You can 4G63T swap a gutted Colt and go just as fast for less money and aggravation.

True.

If you overlook the fact that he wants a turbo V8.

Drop an LS into a Chevette.

When power costs too much, loose more weight!

ScottRA21 wrote: Drop an LS into a locost. When power costs too much, loose more weight!

Fixed.

RossD wrote:

ScottRA21 wrote: Drop an LS into a locost. When power costs too much, lose more weight!

Fixed.

Fixed the fix.

I was wondering about a LS series into a small car, like a Gremlin, Chevette or whatever came up. I would run a Dana 60 and my pops can rebuild an automatic for me, probably a 4l60 with a lockup converter with a switch on the dash to lock the converter. I got that part. Where does one GRM up the piping for a turbo setup? I'd rather use cast iron manifolds since they are more durable, though, and chevies are easier to find for those, even aftermarket. I hadn't thought of a 302, though. That could work too.

The idea would be to buy a junkyard/craigslist/cheapo crate motor that was nothing too special and boost it for power. Good head gaskets and enough valvetrain stuff to support 7000 RPM.

-Brian

How cheap are you thinking? IMO, for a low budget turbo drag car you want a ford. Any type of fox chassis, an exploder 302, and turbocoupe t3 turbos. A c4 tranny could be built to take it, or a c6 if you can find a small block one. An LS series engine would be nice, but will cost 4 times what a 302 or 350 will cost. The main problem with a 350 is the availability of suitable fuel injection manifolds. It can be done, but fords are alot easier. If you do go with a chevy, id go with a th350 or th400 rather than a 4l60. 4l60s have enough trouble not blowing up in the cars they came in stock, it would take a bit of $$ to get one to hold together in a turbochaged car with slicks.

the chassis is irrelevant. Don't focus on that. Also, forget transmissions, that part is easy. All I am worried about is the engine and associated turbo setup. I don't think a gen III engine is that pricey, since I'd be looking at the LQ4 or whatever 6.0L iron truck engine. I guess at this point it's pretty much even with the LQ4/302/350. All can be had with good rotating setup and have good heads on the aftermarket.

The questions are still valid regardless of base engine, however, so let's stick to the turbo stuff...

-Brian

Inspiration:

http://toohighpsi.com/BudgetTT/BudgetTT.htm

I built this car during the spring/summer of 1995 between my sophomore and junior years of college. Due to complete lack of money, I wanted to build the cheapest, fastest, car possible with the parts and little money I had available. This combination was one which I had been considering and saving parts for in my Dad's garage. I finally decided it was time to make it happen. For the measly cost of $600 I had the car running 12.60's @ 111 MPH at 10 psi boost.

toohighpsi.com

...and i, for one, vote for you to drop it in a Maverick.

I know you want a V8, but what about an SR20DET sentra? You can probably break into 10s with 5gs

Taiden wrote: I know you want a V8, but what about an SR20DET sentra? You can probably break into 10s with 5gs

I'm not sure i see that happening, to be honest. To break into the tens on a FWD car like that, you'd have to have more power than the stock motor will take. Sooo... built motor + big turbo + EMS + expensive clutch to harness the power + 15-20 backup transmissions + slicks + suspension + chassis certification... it'll add up quickly.

Buddy of mine has a Neon that runs 10.60s. It ain't no 5G setup.

TJ wrote:

RossD wrote:

ScottRA21 wrote: Drop an LS into a locost. When power costs too much, lose more weight!

Fixed.

Fixed the fix.

Wait. What did you fix?

RossD wrote:

TJ wrote:

RossD wrote:

ScottRA21 wrote: Drop an LS into a locost. When power costs too much, lose more weight!

Fixed.

Fixed the fix.

Wait. What did you fix?

LOOSE TO LOSE

spelling

ProblemAddict: I like what you did there. I was looking for a megasquirted car, but I hadn't considered a blow through setup like that. Would(or could) the size of the turbo for my app be bigger because of the higher boost available through E85?

Gimp, what can I get a big single off of, if that's the way to go?

I don't have anybody offering numbers, but let's say I go with 20-25 psi on E85, am I in the ballpark? I understand that this means copper gaskets, colder plugs, and good timing control, but no biggie. Is that too low, too high?

The reason I liked the LS/LQ idea is that I could be happy with stock heads, since the rock the house compared to ANY production 350/351/302 head. It would save some beans, and I've seen complete motors sans ECU for under a grand. That's less than the price of a good set of heads.

I am open to ideas though, so that's why I just said "around 350 cubic inches".

This is the second time I typed this because my Blackberry is unhappy with this website. It was way better the first time.

The car will be the latecomer to this party. I'll be looking at a four link and subframe connectors with a rollbar at minimum, but the body is anything. If it ends up being a Opel Kadet, so be it.

Oh, and yeah, no FWD on a dragstrip, those guys are just weird. I like to use weight transfer, not do everything to prevent it (wheelie bars on a FWD car are just head-spinning fun). Plus, a V8 will make this much easier. There may be a substitute for cubic inches in boost, but combine them both and you win. Honestly, my first thoughts were revolving around the forged piston 502 crate motor, but power comes from RPM, and those things are only safe to 5500 without some good valvetrain goodies, which are pricey. I'll stay small block to keep costs down, but 350 cubic inches is way better than the 120ish on the four bangers.

Thanks -Brian

Finding a big single for a 300+ cube motor for cheap could be tough. Look into bigger Holsets HX50-55 could work well depending on the hotside.

How about a 5.9L Cummins 12-valve diesel? Those things can get a big heavy truck cooking pretty good, put one in a smaller car. I love that rat rod video with the big diesel motor in it huffing black smoke.

Rusnak_322 wrote: How about a 5.9L Cummins 12-valve diesel? Those things can get a big heavy truck cooking pretty good, put one in a smaller car. I love that rat rod video with the big diesel motor in it huffing black smoke.

that rat rod has a 4cylinder cummins in it and is slow.

find out how much a 5.9 12valve weighs and you'll change your mind.

Actually, if you dont mind replacing the intake and acessories, you could get a useable 6.0 longblock for under $200, becasue underhood fires are very common with those engines, and at least here then show yp in pick and pull all the time with very little damaged other than to the wiring and plastic intake.

93celicaGT2 wrote:

Taiden wrote: I know you want a V8, but what about an SR20DET sentra? You can probably break into 10s with 5gs

I'm not sure i see that happening, to be honest. To break into the tens on a FWD car like that, you'd have to have more power than the stock motor will take. Sooo... built motor + big turbo + EMS + expensive clutch to harness the power + 15-20 backup transmissions + slicks + suspension + chassis certification... it'll add up quickly. Buddy of mine has a Neon that runs 10.60s. It ain't no 5G setup.

Well, you can talk to Fred Casey about that.

Bone stock SR20DE motor with a huge turbo bolted onto it with a nice clutch and drag slicks = 10.8 ET, hundreds of passes and driven on the street on weekends.

The 91-94 SE-R is very underrated.

How much HP are you looking for?

After doing some rereading, it looks like 15 lbs of boost will get you in the 600-800 hp range with a SBC depending on heads and intake. A lot of what I have read says the stock GM blocks puke about there. Cracks and splits seem to be a big problem. There are a bunch of aftermarket block manufactures that say they can get into the 1000hp range with out too many problems. I can't imagine the stock crank, rods, and pistons getting too far past 500hp without mayhem piling up in the oil pan.

Most of the LS guys say 10-15 lbs of boost is max for those engines. The bottom end start failing when you get to 600hp. Not much said about the blocks failing. I would probably go with an iron block. They will probably take more pounding from missed tunes and too much timing.

21 lbs of boost is a bunch. The bottom end of the engine better be bullet proof. Your timing control and tune better be dead nuts on as well or you will have a large grenade on your hands. Watch out for flying engine parts.

Pick up a book called Maximum Boost by Corkey Bell. It's kind of an older book, but if you want to build your own turbo set up is should be required reading. He not only tells you how to do it, but why.

Good Luck! Let us know if you do it and how it turns out. That is one of the projects on my list. 350ci, twin turbochargers, and 1000hp for the Chevelle. Just as soon as I find an extra 15-20K my wife doesn't know about.