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Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/3/11 7:43 a.m.

I haven't found a suitable location for my charcoal canister, so I believe I will be deleting it. On Gates' website, they say that they sell vented gas caps that filter out 'harmful vapors.' That sounds pretty damn good to me. But I can't seem to find any parts retailers that can distinguish between the gates caps. It's either locking or non-locking. Does anyone have any ideas? Maybe this warrants a call to Gates themselves.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/3/11 8:01 a.m.

what would this be for?

The cannister isn't used to filter anything, it's used to store vapors so that they can be burned later in the engine.

The vent in the cap is supposed to be one way, to allow gas to come in, but if it needs to go back out due to expansion- it goes through the cannister system to absorb the fuel vapors and just push out air.

Since you are trying to find a place for it, it appears that you are contructing a car to do this- correct?

And the filtered cap- what would the intention for that be?

mad_machine
mad_machine SuperDork
8/3/11 8:04 a.m.

I am just surprised you cannot find a spot for it. They are generally not all that big

92CelicaHalfTrac
92CelicaHalfTrac SuperDork
8/3/11 8:59 a.m.

Just remove it, leave your stock gas cap, and the hose that goes away from the canister, route that under the car at least behind the driver's seat so you don't get fumes.

Disclaimer: Not responsible for potential emissions legal issues.

alfadriver
alfadriver SuperDork
8/3/11 9:12 a.m.

In reply to 92CelicaHalfTrac:

The emissions due to fumes may not be the only issue- the system failed on the gold car you see to the left- my '73 GTV. Routed the fumes from a hot day on the track directly onto my brakes. Having a fire extinguisher waived very hard at you is not a pleasent thing.

(thankfully, it was minor, and the corner worker put it out, quickly)

z31maniac
z31maniac SuperDork
8/3/11 9:13 a.m.

No room under the booster/MC area?

Travis_K
Travis_K SuperDork
8/3/11 1:16 p.m.

I would not be comfortable removing a charcoal canister because of the issues with flammable vapors. Are you planing to drive the car then park it in the garage next to your water heater? I think finding space for a charcoal canister might be easier (maybe a smaller one from a different car?)

Cone_Junky
Cone_Junky HalfDork
8/3/11 1:31 p.m.
Travis_K wrote: I would not be comfortable removing a charcoal canister because of the issues with flammable vapors. Are you planing to drive the car then park it in the garage next to your water heater? I think finding space for a charcoal canister might be easier (maybe a smaller one from a different car?)

This sounds like the safest idea. That's actually the only emission equipment left on my track car. It traps those dangerous/harmful gas fumes plus it is a component that is manually tested in CA smog tests.

mad_machine
mad_machine SuperDork
8/3/11 1:46 p.m.

what is this going into? I know the cannister in my Ti is behind the "door" panel for the back seat.. you cannot even get it it without removing the vinyl part and then a metal panel

kb58
kb58 HalfDork
8/3/11 1:48 p.m.

Without it, putting your car in the garage will cause the garage to smell like you have a lawnmower in there, but without the oddly-pleasant burnt-grass smell. Also, the daily temperature cycling the garage experiences will cause the more volatile (evaporative) compounds to be pumped out of the tank over time.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/3/11 2:36 p.m.

I'm really not a fan of removing it, but there are a few reasons for wanting to do so.

  1. there is no place in the engine bay where I am comfortable mounting it
  2. the purge solenoid is broken on my motor and a replacement is $100 (although I'm sure I could find a way around this)

I re-read the blurb about the gas caps, and now that I think about it, it sounds much less magical than it originally did.

http://www.gates.com/europe/brochure.cfm?brochure=2492&location_id=5168

Do I need the purge solenoid? Or can I just run vacuum to the carb canister.

Also, charcoal is like a sponge. It would seem to me that after a few years it would be totally saturated with gas vapors. How come this isn't a commonly replaced wear item? Maybe it's not so bad to remove it after all?

ditchdigger
ditchdigger Dork
8/3/11 2:50 p.m.

While agree with the sentiments that it should be left in place and functioning there is the other side of the coin that millions and millions of vehicles were produced, sold and operated before 1970 without this system and while they did sometimes smell they operated just fine.

My car was never equipped with one due to a clever loophole exploited by fiat (under 50cu/in wasn't really considered a car so they were exempt) and while it can get a little smelly and when it warms up there is a noticeable moist area on the gas cap vent. I am not about to install an evaporative emmisions system though.

dculberson
dculberson HalfDork
8/3/11 2:50 p.m.

On some cars, it's mounted between the fender panel and the structure, outside the fender liner. So it takes up absolutely no usable space in the engine bay. Servicing it is more difficult, but just make sure to use some clamps on the hoses! ;-)

You could even put it inside the front bumper or bumper cover if there's a void there. Anywhere that a small cylinder will fit. It's not incredibly dangerous if it's damaged in a wreck so you don't need to treat it like it's explosive.

ransom
ransom HalfDork
8/3/11 2:58 p.m.
Taiden wrote: Also, charcoal is like a sponge. It would seem to me that after a few years it would be totally saturated with gas vapors. How come this isn't a commonly replaced wear item? Maybe it's not so bad to remove it after all?

If I'm not mistaken, the vapors get hoovered out when the car is running, so it's not just soaking up vapors indefinitely, they're being cleaned out regularly.

Ian F
Ian F SuperDork
8/3/11 3:47 p.m.

On a 70-73 Volvo 1800E/ES, the charcoal canister is mounted behind the grill, in front of the radiator. On a Spitfire/GT6, it's mounted on the right frame rail, just ahead of the front tire. You really can't find 'anyplace' to mount it? It seems it can pretty much go anywhere.

In the Volvo, it's plumbed ahead of the throttle plate. On the Triumph, it's plumbed into the PCV hoses.

This is one piece of emissions equipment I'd try like hell to keep - or even install if the car didn't come with it - for the reasons already mentioned.

SupraWes
SupraWes Dork
8/3/11 4:11 p.m.

Wander around a junkyard and find one that is smaller and will fit, that's what I did and I found one that was 1/2 the size of the stocker.

dean1484
dean1484 SuperDork
8/3/11 4:48 p.m.

I removed one on an old car and then plumbed the hose to the air filter box. I think I put a check valve in the vac line in case of a backfire.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/3/11 6:31 p.m.

Okay, I have spare room in the area behind the fender. But I don't have a properly working evap solenoid. Should I wire in a suitable replacement solenoid or is there some purely mechanical way to plumb it back into the intake manifold?

Travis_K
Travis_K SuperDork
8/3/11 6:46 p.m.

Maybe just use one from an older car? Im pretty sure even a lot of 80s cars just use a straight line into the manifold.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/3/11 7:12 p.m.

I was toying with the idea of putting a restrictor in the vac line that way it's not gulping all the vapors in all at once.

Also Wes, do you remember what car it was from?

And everyone else, do you have any memories of charcoal canisters that are small that are easy to find at junkyards?

The stock one will not fit in my fender area unless I tilt it on it's side. If I understand the operation correctly, the charcoal is used to absorb the gases as they are forced down to the vent on the bottom (when the car is off). If it's on it's side, then the charcoal won't be as effective.

donalson
donalson SuperDork
8/3/11 9:31 p.m.

want to say my mr2 had a fairly small charcoal canister.

on my volvo the canister has 2 hoses that goto 2 nipples on the TB right before the throttle plate.

Taiden
Taiden HalfDork
8/3/11 9:34 p.m.
donalson wrote: want to say my mr2 had a fairly small charcoal canister. on my volvo the canister has 2 hoses that goto 2 nipples on the TB right before the throttle plate.

Any idea why it has two? What's the year/make/model so I can investigate this?

novaderrik
novaderrik Dork
8/4/11 1:55 a.m.

i've removed a lot of charcoal canisters over the years without any fume problems. i generally just remove the canister and leave the hardline that goes to the gas tank open.

donalson
donalson SuperDork
8/4/11 3:00 a.m.
Taiden wrote:
donalson wrote: want to say my mr2 had a fairly small charcoal canister. on my volvo the canister has 2 hoses that goto 2 nipples on the TB right before the throttle plate.

Any idea why it has two? What's the year/make/model so I can investigate this?

not a clue why... just know thats how it's setup...

volvo 700/900s... wouldn't be surprised if they did the same with the 200's

Kramer
Kramer HalfDork
8/4/11 7:15 a.m.

Charcoal doesn't absorb the vapors, it adsorbs them. Scientifically, it's different. And the charcoal must be activated for the adsorbtion to happen. If you're interested in science, Google how it works. I'm not that interested, so I'm not gonna Google it, and I don't know enough about it to explain any further.

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