Does The Hive collectively have the experience and brain power...

So I've decided that I don't want to do an automobile. I want to do an EV side by side designed to compete in stage rally. All the electric torque vectoring. With removable battery packs that can be charged while installed or uninstalled from the ATV. With optional saddle bags and roof mounting options, the side by side will have the ability to carry up to 6 battery packs for maximum range. 

For power output, Koenigsegg is going to be contacted.

Rally will be used to showcase the capabilities, but the market for sales will likely be outdoors people who want the element of stealth when approaching wildlife and the abilities of range greater than gasoline powered alternatives. 

gearheadmb said:

We would be the only people that wanted them, and we would all want to wait until they were at the bottom of the depreciation curve.

Sweet, we already have a marketing departent with a firm grasp of our customer base!

I could see a Hive-designed Track Day Monoposto done this way:

The car is conceptualized by The Hive via the internet to use certain specific parts, e.g. Miata uprights/brakes, Honda X or Ford Y or Toyota Z drivetrain (engine, transmission, halfshafts).  The frame meets SCCA specs and is capable of all three drivetrains.  You get the specific engine mounts for the engine you want when you order it.  

The car is delivered in five component packages.  The first is the frame itself, delivered in tubes which would be welded together by the customer using the Hive supplied jigs included in the kit.  The jigs would be charged a deposit and returned for re-use by another customer if chosen by the customer.  It would also include the engine mounting plates/fasteners for the designated drivetrain and the exhaust.  The second is the suspension--A-arms, shocks, bushings to match buyer-supplied reconditioned uprights.  The third would be the fuel cell and the associated plumbing and mounting fasteners.  The fourth would be the brakes and hardlines, radiator/s and hoses, electrical wiring harnesses and gauges.  The fifth package includes the fiberglass bodywork/aero, steering, seat & belts.  I'm probably missing some things, but you get the idea.

So those component packages are manufactured, packaged and shipped from different parts of the country depending on what members of The Hive "buy in" to the project.  Members can purchase shares of stock of TDM ("Track Day Monoposto"?) and if desired, relocate to aid in production/shipping of the component kit.  

Yeah, I know, a million details to take the idea off track and into the weeds, but I keep thinking about how Focke Wulf dispersed manufacturing of the FW-190 during WWII and how well that worked for them.  

You left out one requirement in the title and that's Money.  The answer to that one is NO

I'm down.  I'm good with heavy fabrication (don't ask me to weld body work unless you want weight-reducing holes and aerodynamic waves in the fenders)

Also good with driveline engineering, although much of my experience is in classic American iron.

Pretty fair with suspension design and engineering, but not the super high-end stuff.

Also, not rich.  I bring skills, not money.  Willing to relocate within reason.

I think the operation should start small and consolidated.  All departments under one roof.  Hard to create a control arm in Texas for an experimental tube frame in Michigan.  Once we nail down a few prototypes, then we can move manufacturing to where it makes sense.

alfadriver said:

At some point, making a CF chassis vs. a tube frame cost and effort will be pretty similar.  Especially for the required skill.  

The other option is Elise- which is glued extruded aluminum structure.  As long as it's mid engine, that's a great option. 

Especially since we are talking a track only car.

When I was still active in AROC, I knew some CF specialists.  Just need a big enough autoclave.

Its considerably harder to FEA though.

Tooling would also be an issue.

Whats the devleopment budget for the mythical hive car (no labor)?

I’ve always thought an Open source car design using Open source software would be amazing.  

With enough people and diverse enough interests you could really build something complicated and unique. The project could be broken up and Teams could be established based on different areas of the vehicle where different expertise is required. A group could develop an ECU and the Electrical system, while others focus on the powerplant integration and design, while others do Bodywork and interior, Etc.  

Use of open source CAD, Rendering, Simulation software would keep the project approachable by the most people which should increase the quality of outcome.  

That said the key to success would be like any project, Defined goals and solid project plan. From experience this is not easy even when you have the “goal” set out before you (FSAE).  

You have to get sufficient numbers of people to agree on a path or purpose for the vehicle to move forward otherwise you wind up with multiple unfinished designs. My design committee on the MG and LMP360 has been a total of 1 person and even then I can’t always get them to agree on a path forward.  

That said here’s my thoughts on what would make a successful and useful project for “GRM open source”.  

1. Modularity: Identify Key components and interactions in the vehicle that can be adjusted for different uses and applications. Think a Open Source Vehicle Architecture instead of a single open source vehicle. Think of things like Front Suspension as a modular unit that can be adjusted for different applications. Develop a Spring / suspension design concept that can be adjusted slightly for things. Make 1 “Passenger Cell” that you stretch width wise for Front Engine vs Mid Engine. DP cars does a good job with this and is worth a read for anyone considering this. They have a “D47” project that is basically a modular car concept. Most Manufactures are moving this way also. VW makes like 1 car just of different sizes. 

2. Have a Custom and off the shelf solution for most problems. Design seats but also make sure some type of Commercially available seat fits. Make the perfect fuel cell custom but also ensure a smaller off the shelf design works. This gives flexibility to the final builder of the car and ensures that you have room if you make mistakes.  

3. Stick to the Plan. Keep the end goal in mind from the beginning and don’t skip gates. Project planning should have a series of Stages and Gates. Stages are usually something like Problem Identification -> Concept Development -> Detailed Design -> Prototype -> Validation. They are broken down further, and some steps get repeated like Design/Prototype. At each Arrow you come together and validate that the goals of each Stage are done BEFORE you move on to the next Step. You don’t open the GATE until the entire herd is ready to move to the next field.  

4. Use Production vehicle components when it makes sense to do so. Things like Uprights, Brakes, Steering Racks are readily available in numerous designs with 1000s of hours of testing and use to mess with making your own. Unless the chosen application has VASTLY different design requirements then production it only make sense to use them. There is a place for Fabricated uprights is your car is trying to be 500lbs or is going to be jumping 20’ in the air but for most vehicles an off the shelf solution is probably best.  

5. Bake serviceability and longevity into the plan. Understand the stresses on components and overbuild the Safety Factor on some to create fuses in the design so complicated parts don’t have to be rebuilt over and over again. Make it so getting the Engine out doesn’t require the equivalent of Automotive Yoga to get the chassis in JUST the right angle. Don’t optimize the design around the use of 14” wheels that won’t be available in 5 years. Don’t use obscure car parts that are no longer in production.  

So what would I build?  

For Track? a cheap LMP car obviously.. No Seriously.

Racing and Trackdays are getting Ludacris. Cars are getting heavy which takes big HP to go fast, which takes BIG brakes to stop, which takes big tires to keep on the track. Big on racecars cost money. But at the opposite end Small and Light costs big money too. Carbon Fiber has become the Answer to every problem and costs to be “light” are out of hand. Cars like the NP01 and Rush SR exist but they aren’t Exactly cheap. We need a Modern version of What Formula Vee was. And I know F500 exists and that’s great but I want an enclosed car.  

An enclosed steel tubular frame car should be great for the DIY set.  Building something a little less 10/10ths from a design standpoint may add a few hundred lbs to something like a Radical but will still be nearly 1000lbs less then your typical Miata.  

1500lbs and ~200hp is FUN on a track and can keep up with some serious hardware while having low operating costs. I think a car design that ends up looking LMPish with relatively easy to build bodywork using a FWD automotive drivetrain (an alternate design for a Bike Engine could easily be made) could be developed that should cost around $7500 for your typical builder to build. Used parts could drag the price down to as low as $3000 (Steel got expensive since I built the LMP360) and use of big $$ parts could probably still be done for $15K.  

But that said I’d be in to help with whatever the Hive mind thought would be fun.

nocones said:

We need a Modern version of What Formula Vee was. And I know F500 exists and that’s great but I want an enclosed car.  

An enclosed steel tubular frame car should be great for the DIY set.  Building something a little less 10/10ths from a design standpoint may add a few hundred lbs to something like a Radical but will still be nearly 1000lbs less then your typical Miata.  

1500lbs and ~200hp is FUN on a track and can keep up with some serious hardware while having low operating costs. I think a car design that ends up looking LMPish with relatively easy to build bodywork using a FWD automotive drivetrain (an alternate design for a Bike Engine could easily be made) could be developed that should cost around $7500 for your typical builder to build. Used parts could drag the price down to as low as $3000 (Steel got expensive since I built the LMP360) and use of big $$ parts could probably still be done for $15K.  

 

But that said I’d be in to help with whatever the Hive mind thought would be fun.

 

What significant differences do you see between what you're thinking and something like a Spec Racer Ford?

I don't think the kind of car GRM Dorks would design is likely to find a broad audience.

As much as I would love a Festiva with mid-mounted, twin turbo LSx ... how big is that market, really?

I have no marketable skills but lots of suits and ties so I'm throwing my fedora in the ring for Iacocca like figurehead. 

In reply to Wally (Forum Supporter) :

I mean, someone needs to drive this bus...

In reply to stroker :

Performance wise not huge advantage.  It would have a little more HP, and a little more Aero but also more weight.  The the big advantage would be Lack of rules.  Spec racing is great for Racing.  For TT and HPDE use it just makes the cars unecessarily expensive.   A New SRF is $43-55k.  Used they are less and available but you have to work through SCCA Enterprises to keep them legal.  I am in no way implying that the SRF or any other Spec cars are bad series or bad performing machines.  But I think there is space for a DIY vehicle that hits the performance sweetspot of a SRF/Entry level Radical for less.  

I could also be entirely wrong. 

Time for some recruiting. Aptera Motors in San Diego CA would certainly like to hire the whole GRM Hive, but bringing you in one Bee at a time will have to do. We've got 60 employees, a long way to go and a short time to get there, and a massive crowdfunded budget to do it.

Also, the sort of vehicle was set in advance and it's a very simple, low part count, composite chassis EV with solar panels on the roof.

nocones said:

In reply to stroker :

Performance wise not huge advantage.  It would have a little more HP, and a little more Aero but also more weight.  The the big advantage would be Lack of rules.  Spec racing is great for Racing.  For TT and HPDE use it just makes the cars unecessarily expensive.   A New SRF is $43-55k.  Used they are less and available but you have to work through SCCA Enterprises to keep them legal.  I am in no way implying that the SRF or any other Spec cars are bad series or bad performing machines.  But I think there is space for a DIY vehicle that hits the performance sweetspot of a SRF/Entry level Radical for less.  

I could also be entirely wrong. 

Which is one of the appeals of the idea, to me.  The customer can purchase whatever components they want or they can simply follow the plan to build the car and have confidence it will function.  The big problem is that once you take raw material cost, manufacture and shipping, if we were doing this as a bona fide company there'd have to be enough money left for expenses.  I don't see any way you'd sell enough of these to justify salaries for the staff, but if you have a "shareware" design and some Hive group making steel tubing and another laying fiberglass, etc. as shareholders of the firm, then maybe it could happen.

I've done a stint in automotive production, engineering and re-engineering (fixing other engineers F ups).  And honestly, I'm not interested in doing it again.  Like a lot of things I've done, I'm happy I did it and got the experience, but I'm over it.  I feel the same about the oil and gas industry right now.  Even if they doubled my current salary, I'd probably pass on both.  Money isn't everything. 

I enjoy working on my junk in my spare time as a hobby.  Doing it for a living is something else entirely.  Trying to manage and lead others in doing something can really take the fun out of it. 

To me the amazing places are places like FM where they run an auto business, but everyone still loves hobbying on autos.  Those places are few and far in between.  And honestly, I don't think I can do winters in CO, so I'm not applying there either (and I'm probably too grumpy for them). 

I may get back into auto graphics as a side business / hobby too, but it'll mostly be for fun and not huge profits.  If it pays for my equipment eventually that'd be nice. 

https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/how-to-get-gt4-lap-times-witho/189854/page1/

Ask these guys how easy it is and go from there.

chaparral said:

Time for some recruiting. Aptera Motors in San Diego CA would certainly like to hire the whole GRM Hive, but bringing you in one Bee at a time will have to do. We've got 60 employees, a long way to go and a short time to get there, and a massive crowdfunded budget to do it.

Also, the sort of vehicle was set in advance and it's a very simple, low part count, composite chassis EV with solar panels on the roof.

I unjokingly would take them up on this, if there was any way I could live in Cali.

I think we could do a very Aptera-like car with a larger rear wheel, fiddle with the hubs, and PERSONALLY try for Lithium Iron-Phosphates for a battery instead of Lithium-Ion to get that sweet discharge rate. Use those Motorcycle regs to have plexiglass rear window and cut weight down, and I think you could have a serious contender.

So we're not really talking micro car manufacturer anymore, so much as crowdsourcing a car kit. Still a neat idea.

The modularity mentioned would be a big advantage, both for dispersed manufacturing as well as ability to expand the product line.

Since many (most?) track days don't allow open wheel cars, going with an open wheel track day car would be rather market limiting.

A cheap LMP-esque track toy would be better for track days, but as a business proposition, I would take a step back and look more at what problem we're actually trying to solve first.

Who are the target customers with an unmet need? We are such a diverse group, that "us" simply can't be the answer.

So lets start with a budget track toy.

Is this car for somebody more interested in building it or driving it?

In addition to track days, do they want it to be street legal?

Is a human-occupant second seat for actually carrying passengers important?

In addition to track days, do they want it to be class competitive and in what types of competition?

While budget is one a noted critical constraint, how do we want to prioritize alongside others like time, knowledge, skills, tools, towing capacity, trailer availability, build space, and/or storage space constraints?

If we're just talking run-what-you-brung track toys, in addition to budget turnkey and project production based cars, we'll also be competing with other kit cars, and used racecar conversions.  So what's the market gap that needs to be filled between a turbo Miata, an Exocet or Goblin, and a squared up late model or unrestricted SRF?

Driven5 said:

Who are the target customers with an unmet need? We are such a diverse group, that "us" simply can't be the answer.

So lets start with a budget track toy.

Is this car for somebody more interested in building it or driving it?  Can't speak for everybody but personally, both

In addition to track days, do they want it to be street legal?  Too many complications and liability

Is a human-occupant second seat for actually carrying passengers important?  IMHO sports cars have two seats and formula cars have one seat.

In addition to track days, do they want it to be class competitive and in what types of competition? I see no way to make this "affordable to buy/maintain/operate" and make it racing competitive simultaneously.

While budget is one a noted critical constraint, how do we want to prioritize alongside others like time, knowledge, skills, tools, towing capacity, trailer availability, build space, and/or storage space constraints?  For the first five, roughly comparable to somebody building a Factory Five.  I see no significant potential appeal in accommodating the last four criteria to the design--but maybe that's me. 

If we're just talking run-what-you-brung track toys, in addition to budget turnkey and project production based cars, we'll also be competing with other kit cars, and used racecar conversions.  So what's the market gap that needs to be filled between a turbo Miata, an Exocet or Goblin, and a squared up late model or unrestricted SRF?  To me, we aim for lower cost/s and less time fabricating.  Let's use the FF Cobra as an example--it's pretty much bolt-it-together if you've got a decent donor.  But FF has to sell at a profit and offset overhead.  If we came up with a viable design and then shared the cost of subcontracting certain manufacturing processes (e.g. tube bending and saving the tooling costs) we could get close to "cost+shipping" on components.

I'm thinking a single seater track toy with a full body available for those who need one might be a solution.

stroker said:

But FF has to sell at a profit and offset overhead.  If we came up with a viable design and then shared the cost of subcontracting certain manufacturing processes (e.g. tube bending and saving the tooling costs) we could get close to "cost+shipping" on components.

By throwing the profit motive out the window and focusing on what the you want more than the market... What you're describing is no longer a micro manufacturer of cars, nor even a crowdsourced manufacturer of car kits, but really just a crowdsourced personal car project.

With no real potential for financial compensation that limits the talent pool to those that have both substantially similar dream project goals, in addition to the willingness and ability to actively dedicate sufficient time and money into it... And trust that the others will do the same.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

So move to California and join us! It's still part of the USA. Gas is $5 per gallon, rent is $1000/month more than you'd pay in the Midwest or South, the DMV is a pain to deal with, and only 91 and E85 are readily available. How much more in salary do you think would cover the move? We'll probably pay it.

Driven5 said:

stroker said:

But FF has to sell at a profit and offset overhead.  If we came up with a viable design and then shared the cost of subcontracting certain manufacturing processes (e.g. tube bending and saving the tooling costs) we could get close to "cost+shipping" on components.

By throwing the profit motive out the window and focusing on what the you want more than the market... What you're describing is no longer a micro manufacturer of cars, nor even a crowdsourced manufacturer of car kits, but really just a crowdsourced personal car project.

With no real potential for financial compensation that limits the talent pool to those that have both substantially similar dream project goals, in addition to the willingness and ability to actively dedicate sufficient time and money into it... And trust that the others will do the same.

I hear you, but my more recent posts were aimed specifically at the idea of a track day car, which I readily acknowledge as an extremely limited market.  My original post was envisioned as whether The Hive had the talent pool necessary to build street cars and actually be a viable business.  The latter was just idle speculation, but the former I think might be something a lot of GRM members would actually enjoy doing.  If we had a couple of dozen virtually identical track day cars running across the country, that offers some interesting possibilities.

I think the first question that needs to be answered is how do you compete with the likes of the BRZ and the Miata. (Assuming this is the target market).   Why would someone want to purchase this car instead of those?   Figure out the answer to that question and then proceed. 
 

It is why I think going to a roller skate type platform that you can program to perform in a manor that matches what ever body you drop on it. Subcontract to one of the big manufacturers the roller skate. Tesla is the obvious one to consider but I know GM was looking in to this long before the electric car market was viable so maybe talk nice to them and dust off that design and update it with modern tech.  Then go to a coach builder or three for the different body's.  You could have a small pickup a mid size two or four door sedan and a two door sports car with either a hatch or a trunk. The sports car would probibly be more of a GT type car. Purchase your roller skate and a body now. If your needs change (kids show up you move to a farm) get another body or just trade in the body for another on. You could even rent/lease body's to people for short or long term use. I wonder if you could have a single registration and insurance to the roller skate if you had multiple body's.  Keeping insurance costs down.  
 

This was the GM concept back in 2002

I want a shooting brake and a small pick-up. 

4 door can be optional, bit 2 must be available.

No EV power trains, no front wheel drive.