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Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/18/17 12:40 p.m.
Flight Service wrote: I am content with 10 lbs to 1hp for a nimble sports car. The ~14:1 is a bit off putting. That is one of the reasons I like the original S2000. That was the goal 10:1 I know the ND is around 15:1 which is why I think it needs a bit of oomph too.

You can't just use a peak number. Look at area under the curve.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
1/18/17 12:46 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner:

Keith, I know it's been a few months since I was active but...

jstein77
jstein77 UltraDork
1/18/17 12:55 p.m.

I've driven and raced against BRZ's at autocrosses, and they are certainly quick enough to set amazing times. Though I would argue that having an STi version in the lineup with the turbo motor (at extra cost, of course, like the STi version of the WRX) would create a surge in demand for the whole lineup.

racerdave600
racerdave600 SuperDork
1/18/17 12:56 p.m.

I liked my '15 BRZ, but didn't love it. It had two big issues for me, neither were the power. First, the seats for me just sucked. I admit to a bad back, but it sucked like no other car I've driven. Add to that the harshness of the suspension and it was too much to drive everyday. I'm sure if I were in my 20's it probably wouldn't have bothered me at all. A good shock change would have helped it enormously I think, and they should definitely think about adding another seating option.

As for the cross shopping, I loved my 370Z by comparison. There was nothing the BRZ did the 370 didn't do better, except for steering feel. It was faster everywhere, and more comfortable doing it. The week after I sold the 370 and bought the BRZ I knew I had made a mistake. With a few tweaks the BRZ could be sooooo much better.

I did however like it and would consider another one should they improve it certain areas. I feel I'm probably in the minority however and not in their target demographic.

Joe Gearin
Joe Gearin Associate Publisher
1/18/17 1:42 p.m.

^^^ funny---- as my back absolutely couldn't take the seats in the 370z, but I find the Frisbee seats very comfortable. I've never felt pain from a seat before--- but for some reason the 370z thrones were unbearable. I could only drive the car for 20 minutes or less before I'd be in a great deal of pain. This was the only car I've ever driven that I had such a big issue with.

Different body types find different seats painful, or comfy. I'd highly recommend spending some time behind the wheel before you buy any new car.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
1/18/17 1:58 p.m.

In reply to Joe Gearin:

I find the 350z more comfortable than the 370Z...

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
1/18/17 2:27 p.m.
nderwater wrote: The BRZ competes against the latest Mustangs and Camaros, along with the Challenger, Genesis Coupe and even the 370Z. I've not driven any of these, but on paper, the BRZ trails the pack. Most shoppers aren't test driving all of a target model's competition either, so without time behind the wheel a lot of people may completely miss why this car shines.

It competes for market share with the pony cars, granted.

What the pony crowd misses, because they are focused on HP that they cant use on a daily basis, is the realities that exist with a lightweight chassis. You either get the concept of a lightweight car you don't, and as I suspected when the car first came out, most NA buyers would not get it.

If your value proposition is HP, don't buy an FRS. If your value proposition is lightweight, the twins are the ONLY players in the market at the price point.

CobraSpdRH
CobraSpdRH Reader
1/18/17 2:38 p.m.

So I should just go find a used first edition model and then find somebody with a 2017 to swap wheels with me?

I've definitely been keeping my eye on used prices for these, and it doesn't seem like there are any huge differences with the refresh (just get some 7.5" RPF1's and brake pads). Hopefully they stay just appreciated enough to continue to build them but not increase the resale on them.

Now that Scion has gone the way of the dodo, will Toyota be selling an FT-86 here in the states or is the BR-Z the only show in town?

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
1/18/17 2:40 p.m.
NOHOME wrote: If your value proposition is HP, don't buy an FRS. If your value proposition is lightweight, the twins are the ONLY players in the market at the price point.

I'm sorry. What did you say? Let me just leave ~$500 in your pocket and 400 lbs at the factory for you...

Unless you meant the twins are two of four players in the lightweight market. Because if you want to pay more and weigh more, like the twins, Fiat has a body kit they are selling on the Miata too.

In reply to CobraSpdRH: The 86 is for sale now as a 2017 model at Toyota

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
1/18/17 2:47 p.m.
Flight Service wrote:
NOHOME wrote: If your value proposition is HP, don't buy an FRS. If your value proposition is lightweight, the twins are the ONLY players in the market at the price point.
I'm sorry. What did you say? Let me just leave ~$500 in your pocket and 400 lbs at the factory for you... In reply to CobraSpdRH: The 86 is for sale now as a 2017 model at Toyota

I actually shopped the two.$12,000 more for the Miata than the FRS.

FRS was 32k sitting in my driveway, the Miata was closer to 45k by the time I got it home. Cause Canada.

Miata≠four seater hardtop.

Flight Service
Flight Service MegaDork
1/18/17 2:50 p.m.
NOHOME wrote:
Flight Service wrote:
NOHOME wrote: If your value proposition is HP, don't buy an FRS. If your value proposition is lightweight, the twins are the ONLY players in the market at the price point.
I'm sorry. What did you say? Let me just leave ~$500 in your pocket and 400 lbs at the factory for you... In reply to CobraSpdRH: The 86 is for sale now as a 2017 model at Toyota
I actually shopped the two.$12,000 more for the Miata than the FRS. FRS was 32k sitting in my driveway, the Miata was closer to 45k by the time I got it home. Cause Canada. Miata≠four seater hardtop.

That must be a canada thing because the Miata is cheaper, lighter and the saying the BRZ is a 4 seater just isn't done in the US.

2+2 is pushing it, more like a luggage shelf with retaining straps. Hell those seats are so useless just take them out and get some of that weight back. (You also never said 4 seat or hardtop, just lightweight)

keethrax
keethrax Dork
1/18/17 3:08 p.m.
Keith Tanner wrote: You don't need to point back 25 years to the original Miata. The current one is also light with relatively low power levels. You know, dull and boring. Everyone knows that

Says the guy who makes a living fixing that.

Keith Tanner wrote: Ever looked at our lineup of parts for the ND? It's almost all chassis and brakes. We're looking at the engine, but we're really a handling company that happens to sell power adders.

I have. And the site basically just says "we're working in it" Not "you don't need/want it."

Personally I'ma lot more likely to forgive a bit less power than I would like in a convertible than in a hardtop.

racerdave600
racerdave600 SuperDork
1/18/17 4:38 p.m.
Joe Gearin wrote: ^^^ funny---- as my back absolutely couldn't take the seats in the 370z, but I find the Frisbee seats very comfortable. I've never felt pain from a seat before--- but for some reason the 370z thrones were unbearable. I could only drive the car for 20 minutes or less before I'd be in a great deal of pain. This was the only car I've ever driven that I had such a big issue with. Different body types find different seats painful, or comfy. I'd highly recommend spending some time behind the wheel before you buy any new car.

It would be a boring place if we all liked the same thing. That or we'd all be made out of Legos.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
1/18/17 5:08 p.m.
CobraSpdRH wrote: Now that Scion has gone the way of the dodo, will Toyota be selling an FT-86 here in the states or is the BR-Z the only show in town?

Toyota dealers now carry their own version, the 86.

Vracer111
Vracer111 Reader
1/18/17 9:03 p.m.

All the stock seats in all the 'inexpensive' sporty/sports cars suck to me, I haven't driven in a vehicle where the stock seats were ever properly fitting to my body, especially Japanese vehicles. I got my '13 FR-S in spite of the fact the stock seats really suck for me, because I knew I would be swapping it out for a proper seat eventually. Took me 3 years to be able to afford it, but was finally able to get the right seat in it (Recaro Sportster CS).

Like the look of the '17 BRZ, but the '17 86... not so much with that ugly front bumper. The refinement of the powertrain seems nice from all accounts. Really like the look of the red aluminum intake manifold and the new rear tail lights, and it's nice that some 17x7.5" wheels can be had stock... I settled on that size wheel with 205/45-17 Continental Extreme Contact DW's and really like what it did with the handling.

Appleseed
Appleseed MegaDork
1/18/17 9:42 p.m.

Didn't we have a 6-7 page thread about too much factory horsepower? Pick one people.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UltraDork
1/18/17 10:36 p.m.
mtn wrote: It isn't the power or the speed, it is the delivery. It is such a linear torque band that it doesn't *feel* fast in a straight line. It is faster than my old Miata, but my old Miata felt "fast" in a straight line because of the power delivery. It wasn't fast at all, but unless there was a car (pick one, anyone, even a minivan) next to me I didn't know that. I still almost ended up with one, and someday may again in teh future since it is so much more usable than a Miata... But I doubt it.
thebigchill wrote: The original unmodified Miata is a bore to drive if we can be honest, so that feels like an appropriate comparison, actually.
Here is where I disagree. I don't think it was a bore to drive--it was a lot of fun.

This. If this car came with the K20 or K24 out of a Civic Si, I bet you there would be at least a 50% reduction in the griping of how much power the car comes with (at least with people who have driven it). VTEC gives you that visceral feel of "fast" and not so linear power. TBH it's one thing that made me dislike my 2016 WRX. The power was so smooth and linear the car felt boring when you got on it; but, it also got like 27mpg in non highway driving and hauled ass. Complete opposite of the EJs in the STI where boost didn't kick in until later in the rev range.

I love the BRZ and this performance pack makes me contemplate ditching my S2K; but, there are so many other options out there. I've got a lot of test driving to do this upcoming summer.

Talking about seats. The seats in my wife's FXT Touring are a step down from the base model Forester cloth seats. Wife and I both hate the leather seats, uncomfortable and makes our asses/legs fall asleep. We would gladly swap these out for a set of base model seats if we had the opportunity.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/19/17 12:49 a.m.
keethrax wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: Ever looked at our lineup of parts for the ND? It's almost all chassis and brakes. We're looking at the engine, but we're really a handling company that happens to sell power adders.
I have. And the site basically just says "we're working in it" Not "you don't need/want it."

Need and want are two very different things People want more, we'll have more available for them soon enough. Do they need more? Probably not. But it's fun. As noted, I'd rather have even more character from the engine myself.

MSRP in Canada for the Toyota 86: $29,580.
MSRP in Canada for the Miata: $31,900. Nohome needs to get a second opinion from a different dealer.

DaveEstey
DaveEstey PowerDork
1/19/17 8:51 a.m.

I think the issue with the BRZ/FT86 is the dip in the torque curve right in the heart of the rev range - makes it feel weedy. A tune takes care of it, but the manufacturer should be doing that work, not the aftermarket.

jstein77
jstein77 UltraDork
1/19/17 9:45 a.m.
DaveEstey wrote: I think the issue with the BRZ/FT86 is the dip in the torque curve right in the heart of the rev range - makes it feel weedy. A tune takes care of it, but the manufacturer should be doing that work, not the aftermarket.

Yeah, the aftermarket can fix that dip.

(This is from a Treadstone turbo kit. 273 ft-lbs at the wheels.)

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
1/19/17 10:05 a.m.
DaveEstey wrote: I think the issue with the BRZ/FT86 is the dip in the torque curve right in the heart of the rev range - makes it feel weedy. A tune takes care of it, but the manufacturer should be doing that work, not the aftermarket.

A tune "kind of" takes care of it. The big fix is an E85 tune and a header.

Mister Fister
Mister Fister Reader
1/19/17 10:41 a.m.

Used to own one.

Needs more power.

NOHOME
NOHOME PowerDork
1/19/17 10:47 a.m.
Keith Tanner wrote:
keethrax wrote:
Keith Tanner wrote: Ever looked at our lineup of parts for the ND? It's almost all chassis and brakes. We're looking at the engine, but we're really a handling company that happens to sell power adders.
I have. And the site basically just says "we're working in it" Not "you don't need/want it."
Need and want are two very different things People want more, we'll have more available for them soon enough. Do they need more? Probably not. But it's fun. As noted, I'd rather have even more character from the engine myself. MSRP in Canada for the Toyota 86: $29,580. MSRP in Canada for the Miata: $31,900. Nohome needs to get a second opinion from a different dealer.

You mean that MSRP has something to do with the actual price? Please tell the Tete du Merde sales guys at Probart Mazda that little fact. I was informed that the FRS is not the competition for the Miata, rather the Mercedes SLK. I will admit to not being a negotiator. I put what I consider to be my buy price as the only number and then go away. In the case of the Miata it was the MSRP.

Needless to say I am still driving the FRS.

As a fan of capitalism, all I can say is if they are selling, more power to them.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/19/17 11:41 a.m.

Oh man, I remember Probart. They gave my Miata a free 100 point inspection and told me my battery was on its last legs. Took them a while to find it, since it was cleverly installed in the trunk. That was in...1993? 1994? I replaced that battery in 2002.

MSRP can be used as a guide to the maximum selling price. Typically you don't see cars selling for 50% more than that. The dealer just wanted you to go away.

Ironsides
Ironsides New Reader
1/19/17 11:52 a.m.

Coincidentally, on the same day this article launched , I took home my '17

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