Subaru no longer offers the Legacy wagon. My father is a serial owner of the things and was very unhappy when his new one had to be a sedan. He wasn't interested in the new, bigger Outback - but that was based on preconceptions, not on actually driving one. I tried to get him to try on a CX5 which I think would have been a great choice, but he won't accept a "SUV". His loss, unfortunately.
mtn said:Adrian, are they going to keep the Continental? That's one I could see myself buying in a few years. Hell, I'm even emailing with a dealer over a leftover 17 MKZ, so I'm not the car makers worst nightmare anymore
question is, WHEN WILL THEY KILL THE MKT!
god damn that thing is horrid.
John Welsh said:I predict an offering of aftermarket lowering kits and the new "slammed" will be the old ride height.
OMG!...You may have just uncovered the truth. It's all just a conspiracy to make it so the stance crowd stops holding up traffic at every railroad, pot hole, driveway, or speed bump.
mtn said:Adrian, are they going to keep the Continental? That's one I could see myself buying in a few years. Hell, I'm even emailing with a dealer over a leftover 17 MKZ, so I'm not the car makers worst nightmare anymore
From what I've read both of those are going to be canceled and I believe maybe have already stopped production.
ultraclyde said:Even one of our own members said that he replaced a '10 hatchback car with a '17 CUV and it was better in every way. In the next paragraph he said he prefers cars, and yet he still bought the CUV. Why is that?
Yeah, that's me.
Technically, the CUV is my wife's. She wanted a CUV for all the reasons everyone else does: better visibility, more space, etc. We both wanted something bigger for her (both for dog hauling duty and for us to cruise in), and I wanted something for her with AWD. We like Mazdas, so that leaves the CX-5 and CX-9. CX-9 was too big for us, so CX-5 it was. She wanted a CUV, and I wanted something that met my criteria, and it happened to be a CUV. FWIW, I do like it, but can't stand other CUV's I've been in, like the RAV4, Murano, Rogue, etc. Dare I say it's even fun to drive. But, a big part of the "better in every way" is due to it being a 2018 brand new vehicle vs a 160k mile, worn out 2010 vehicle. The 2018 has more room, more tech, more power, and well... more. Same can be said about the apples-to-apples Mazda 3.
I, on the other hand, prefer cars. For me, I like driving cars more on my daily commute. My next daily driver will likely be a car; something fun to drive that gets decent gas mileage. I am NOT buying a CUV, unless Mazda decides to toss some crazy mill into the CX-5, lowers it, and makes a Mazdaspeed CX-5. 
Also, someone mentioned trucks. I love trucks, and I also have one for weekend dump and home improvement store runs. They are extremely useful. But daily driving one doesn't make much sense in my situation. My commute is long, and the fuel/maintenance costs add up. My next truck will likely be something a little older and something cool, and will probably only get driven when needed. If someone made a fuel efficient, affordable 4x4 truck, I'd consider it.
I have a 3/4 ton Dodge and I love the thing. It is used almost exclusively for Truck Things. But thanks to a recent move, I've been driving it as a DD a fair bit. And it's just not great at that. Most of that is the fact that it's a stick and weighs nearly four tons empty, so it's a fair bit of work when dealing with other traffic. But the ride quality and the size have me tired of it. I'll be back in the little CRX hatch or the M5 or a Miata or the XJ soon enough - and of those, the XJ is the one that's just the easy option. Decent cargo room to chuck a radiator or something in the back, automatic so I just have to deal with a Go Pedal and a Stop Pedal, great visibility, comfy seats. Is it the proto-CUV?
Fun fact - the Dodge 2500, the M5 and the XJ all get almost exactly the same mileage when used on my commute, although the XJ drinks the cheapest fuel and makes far less power/torque than the other two.
Another thing I think is killing sedans, they aren't really sedans anymore. They are trending towards 4 door coupes, with rakish rear rooflines that make it impractical to get in and out of the smallish back seats. CUVs do not have that problem. It used to be the sedan/wagon was the go-to family vehicle, but families, even small ones, don't want to deal with the shrinking rear door openings and lowered rooflines of modern sedans. And CUVs offer easy access to the larger back seats. Makes them much more practical than modern sedans, and they are also easier to use/live with than modern wagons. Vehicle dynamics are more than good enough for the average person. So as sedans styling tends towards coupes, sales of them fall off, as they lose the practicality that they once had.
Enyar said:Trans_Maro said:Meh, can't say I'm shocked.
To me, a car is completely useless.
I can't understand all these homeowners who own two cars and work on their house.
Every day I see folks shoving lumber, drywall, fertilizer and assorted crap into a car or minivan and thinking that this is how it should be.
If you have two vehicles, one should be a truck, period.
Couldn't disagree more. First I would venture to guess that >75% of homeowners don't do their own work. 2nd, a minivan can fit a full 4x8 sheet of plywood laying flat....some trucks cant even do that! Let alone CUVs or SUVs. 3rd, I'm laughing all the way to the bank when I load my little trailer (which costs me nothing to insure and peanuts for registration) up with drywall and tow it home with my corolla while the brodozers are getting 9 mpg and have a truck bed that's 5 feet in the air.
Trucks are for towing heavy loads, period.
Interesting you say that as the typical traditional full size body on frame American sedans with towing package could pull 7000 pounds or more. And one of the main reasons trucks became so popular was the disappearing of the full size sedans. In fact back them most race cars boats campers etc were towed by a car rather then a truck.
John Welsh said:In similar fashion, there used to always be a lower, regular Subaru Legacy wagon and a lifted Subaru Outback. Seems that Subaru sells a lot less of the low version. Actually, Im not sure if they still offer the low version.
As Keith noted, they don't. IMO, that's part of the problem, too. All the SUV-haters who say "just get a wagon", and I say "which one?" There are like 4 left in the American market. The general public doesn't like them any more than they like sedans, less so, in fact. It sucks, but it's a fact.
Chris_V said:Another thing I think is killing sedans, they aren't really sedans anymore. They are trending towards 4 door coupes, with rakish rear rooflines that make it impractical to get in and out of the smallish back seats. CUVs do not have that problem. It used to be the sedan/wagon was the go-to family vehicle, but families, even small ones, don't want to deal with the shrinking rear door openings and lowered rooflines of modern sedans. And CUVs offer easy access to the larger back seats. Makes them much more practical than modern sedans, and they are also easier to use/live with than modern wagons. Vehicle dynamics are more than good enough for the average person. So as sedans styling tends towards coupes, sales of them fall off, as they lose the practicality that they once had.
To expand on this, massive child safety seats are killing sedans. It’s a lot harder to get kids in/out of a safety seat in a car with low seats and a low roof. Seems like a lot of CUVs are getting fairly low ground clearance, but keeping higher seats and roofs. Better handling than the SUVs of the past, but easier entry/exit than a comparable sedan.
As for those bringing up another gas crunch the big difference now is that manufactures all have these smaller and compact crossover/cuv that get great gas mileage. With more electric/hybrid,newer transmissions with more gears etc,Diesel engines etc it’s a different world.
This is probably also due to pedestrian crash stuff right? Taller car = less chance of people flying up on hood issues?
Aren't 4 door coupes impossible based on traditional definitions?
In reply to Appleseed :
No. Coupe is based on the French word for "cut" and means cut down rear roofline for less rear cargo space. Has zero to do with the number of doors, which is why there were 2 and 4 door sedans over the years. First 4 door coupes were the '60s Rover P5s, which came in 2 and 4 door coupe and 2 and 4 door sedan bodystyles.
Sedan:
Sedan:
Coupe:
I think it all comes down to most people like big cars. These days, that means SUV, CUV, or trucks. In the old days, that was a full sized sedan or wagon. I know my son and his family have a F150 and Explorer, and they wouldn't dream of owning a car. To them, its also the hip vehicle to own, the status symbols if you will. If you have a car, their friends think you can't afford anything else. Cars are what your grandparents drive, and it doesn't matter what kind of car. I remember he and his wife thinking my Porsche was just meh because their phone wouldn't sync up. And to them, how you judge a vehicle is not by how it drives, but by how many gadgets and electronics it has. I don't think the F150 has ever been used as a real truck.
Times are changing quickly and most here are going to be the outliers for sure.
Chris_V said:Another thing I think is killing sedans, they aren't really sedans anymore. They are trending towards 4 door coupes, with rakish rear rooflines that make it impractical to get in and out of the smallish back seats. CUVs do not have that problem. It used to be the sedan/wagon was the go-to family vehicle, but families, even small ones, don't want to deal with the shrinking rear door openings and lowered rooflines of modern sedans. And CUVs offer easy access to the larger back seats. Makes them much more practical than modern sedans, and they are also easier to use/live with than modern wagons. Vehicle dynamics are more than good enough for the average person. So as sedans styling tends towards coupes, sales of them fall off, as they lose the practicality that they once had.
Interesting that you say this, because it is describing my wife and I pretty accurately. We're about to go straight to the minivan with our first child^ because once you add in dogs*, we just don't have enough space in anything else. Sure, a wagon would be an excellent alternative, but what is available now? In a reasonable price range (new) really there is nothing. A bunch of CUV's and SUV's would work, but we want the sliding doors.
^Have you seen the size of carseats? And strollers?
*Dogs are large dogs--Great Pyrenees and Samoyed.
Chris_V said:Another thing I think is killing sedans, they aren't really sedans anymore. They are trending towards 4 door coupes, with rakish rear rooflines that make it impractical to get in and out of the smallish back seats... So as sedans styling tends towards coupes, sales of them fall off, as they lose the practicality that they once had.
This is 100% within the control of the car companies themselves.
Duke said:Chris_V said:Another thing I think is killing sedans, they aren't really sedans anymore. They are trending towards 4 door coupes, with rakish rear rooflines that make it impractical to get in and out of the smallish back seats... So as sedans styling tends towards coupes, sales of them fall off, as they lose the practicality that they once had.
This is 100% within the control of the car companies themselves.
Less than you think--there is a shape that is more efficient than others. Check out the actual outline shape of most cars. They're trending more and more towards a Prius.
My FIL was a lifer at Ford before he retired, on the management team. About 10 years ago he told me that they were actually losing money on every Focus they sold, but they had to sell a high volume of them to meet federal MPG requirements to offset the low-mileage SUV’s and trucks, which were much more profitable. I think now that the trucks and SUV’s are getting 20+ MPG, they’re chopping the less profitable vehicles.
Soon, there will be nothing left but automated electric boxes on wheels. I'll start the bidding on my Fiesta ST at $100,000...once you are all desperate.
Looks like I'll have to deal with maintenance costs of BMW and Audi from now on.
I looked around a lot during my 200-mile circuit today here in the heart of Ford and Chevy country. The only late model 4 doors I saw of the Ford variety were three different fusions and cop cars. There were a bunch of Fleet focuses and trucks and SUVs. Chevrolet was well represented by the Malibu and the Sonic but only to the tune of about 20 or so. This is not including Mustangs or Camaros. So I guess they really aren't selling that well as if they were going to sell anywhere would be around here.
I haven't read the whole thread so this may have already been stated but..........cars are going away. That's all there is to it. I don't like it, we don't like it. This is an enthusiasts forum so of course we don't like it. Manual transmissions are gone on a most models now even a lot of performance brands. My friends teenage sons who are in college don't even have their driver's licenses yet and don't want them either. They are not interested in driving. They want autonomous vehicles and something else to do the work for them. Driving detracts from their social media time. Electric and autonomous vehicle are the wave of the future. There likely won't even be design or difference, they will all be just transportation vessels. Blobs or pods or something. We will all meet at the track on the weekend to drive our antique cars around.
I am sure Ford didn't just suddenly decide to drop most of their car models with out much discussion and research . People (most anyway) don't want them anymore. Chrysler already is doing it. The Dart and 200 are gone after this year. Seems like GM is the odd one out with so many car lines. Just can't understand why they would bring out the Cascada right when cars are going away and the convertible market is so miniscule too. And what about all the short term cheapy sub-prime leases? All my friends lease their cars now......usually for 2 years and then the inevitable pull ahead so at about 20 months they get a new car. A female co-worker of mine just recently leased a new vehicle and I asked her what kind she got . She said, "oh I don't know it doesn't matter, it's blue". Because it doesn't matter to most people, it's just a device to get around in. Anyway, I fear I am just rambling on at this point. I don't like it, but it's coming.
Feedyurhed said:I am sure Ford didn't just suddenly decide to drop most of their car models with out much discussion and research .
I was once given that same basic argument about the horrendous failure of a dual clutch transmission Ford used in the Focus/Fiesta...And we all know how that turned out. LOL
mtn said:Duke said:Chris_V said:Another thing I think is killing sedans, they aren't really sedans anymore. They are trending towards 4 door coupes, with rakish rear rooflines that make it impractical to get in and out of the smallish back seats... So as sedans styling tends towards coupes, sales of them fall off, as they lose the practicality that they once had.
This is 100% within the control of the car companies themselves.
Less than you think--there is a shape that is more efficient than others. Check out the actual outline shape of most cars. They're trending more and more towards a Prius.
But that’s not what we’re talking about, is it? A Prius has a nice high back seat roofline. We’re talking about the ridiculously slope-backed 3-box sedans as started by Mercedes and copied by everyone else.
A Prius is closer to a 5-series GT or an A7, with a higher extended roofline. If efficiency of shape is the thing, sedans should be headed that way.
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