Damned shame about this car. Ford had a clear cut winner on their hands but this HG problem has permanently tainted (huh huh huh - taint) it's reputation. You won't be able to buy or sell one without having an HG discussion. Reminds me of BMW and the first twin turbo six they put that experienced wastegate issues. Then you have the 1st gen Mazdaspeed3 with it's turbo seal issue. Also, Rx-7's and the rotary issues. All of these are well known to potential purchasers.
Now...that said. These can be bargains if you go in with your eyes open and a plan to mitigate. I purchased a used 07 BMW 335i for used Camry money in 2009. It was a riot to drive and I never had an issue with the turbo's. The fuel injection system, water pump, and fuel pump were other problems taken care of by a Carmax warranty. That warranty paid for itself twice over on that ride. I had a Mazdaspeed3 that lunched it's turbo thanks to that seal. Mazda stepped up and gave me a new one 43k. My point being I knew the issues going in and they didn't catch me napping as the owner. These well known issues also lowered the purchase price so I was able to get into a hotter ride for less initial outlay. It's a gamble but what isn't?
I think the RS will be the same. Get the HG fixed, leave it tuned at stock power levels, and my bet is you'll be A-ok as a driver. No comment on the track manners. The track environment is notoriously harsh. I don't expect factory cars to hold up 100%. It's a great bonus if they do. I don't expect the HG will last the life of the car. At some point it may fail. Especially considering it's an iron block with an aluminum head. Overheat that motor once and you'll stress that HG seal quite a bit. You'll be lucky to get away with a single overheat and a lower chance if you overheat the motor repeatedly. If it lasts 150k I'd say you've gotten your money's worth considering the output and fun factor of that car. If you want reliability out to 200k+ you should get a Maxima or something powered by a mildly tuned NA motor. If you want some wild fun in something you don't normally have access to on this side of the Atlantic you could be witnessing the birth of a performance bargain. Ford has some of the best engineers in the world. They'll find a solution.
docwyte said:
z31maniac said:
Geez. These things are seeing some HORRIBLE depreciation. 25-30% in one year with nearly no miles?
That seems like normal depreciation. Most cars get hammered in the first year, regardless of how many miles they have.
I got lucky with my '13 Mustang GT, but it was a base model + Track Pack.
I paid $30,500 for it, drove it for 7 months and 6500 miles and traded it in for $30,000. I know there is still payments/insurance, but there is on a car that loses a third of it's value in that short of time.
Mustang has much more appeal as well.
Xceler8x said:
Damned shame about this car. Ford had a clear cut winner on their hands but this HG problem has permanently tainted (huh huh huh - taint) it's reputation. You won't be able to buy or sell one without having an HG discussion. Reminds me of BMW and the first twin turbo six they put that experienced wastegate issues. Then you have the 1st gen Mazdaspeed3 with it's turbo seal issue. Also, Rx-7's and the rotary issues. All of these are well known to potential purchasers.
Now...that said. These can be bargains if you go in with your eyes open and a plan to mitigate. I purchased a used 07 BMW 335i for used Camry money in 2009. It was a riot to drive and I never had an issue with the turbo's. The fuel injection system, water pump, and fuel pump were other problems taken care of by a Carmax warranty. That warranty paid for itself twice over on that ride. I had a Mazdaspeed3 that lunched it's turbo thanks to that seal. Mazda stepped up and gave me a new one 43k. My point being I knew the issues going in and they didn't catch me napping as the owner. These well known issues also lowered the purchase price so I was able to get into a hotter ride for less initial outlay. It's a gamble but what isn't?
I think the RS will be the same. Get the HG fixed, leave it tuned at stock power levels, and my bet is you'll be A-ok as a driver. No comment on the track manners. The track environment is notoriously harsh. I don't expect factory cars to hold up 100%. It's a great bonus if they do. I don't expect the HG will last the life of the car. At some point it may fail. Especially considering it's an iron block with an aluminum head. Overheat that motor once and you'll stress that HG seal quite a bit. You'll be lucky to get away with a single overheat and a lower chance if you overheat the motor repeatedly. If it lasts 150k I'd say you've gotten your money's worth considering the output and fun factor of that car. If you want reliability out to 200k+ you should get a Maxima or something powered by a mildly tuned NA motor. If you want some wild fun in something you don't normally have access to on this side of the Atlantic you could be witnessing the birth of a performance bargain. Ford has some of the best engineers in the world. They'll find a solution.
Well headgasket is fortunately something that isn't that hard to do. I mean it's not like crankwalk on an Eclipse or the Porsche IMS bearing.
The same thing plagued the MK3 Supra and IDK why people complained about that. Just replace the headgasket and it's good and you have a nice bulletproof engine now.
Yeah, I'm missing the connection between incorrect headgasket installed at the factory and cracked blocks.
It is unfortunate that we owners have to deal with this, but it's being taken care of and it's still a hell of a car. It's not for everyone, but I enjoy mine.
goingnowherefast said:
- https://tinyurl.com/ycr9yhsp 17 RS - 2,990 miles - $29.5K
- https://tinyurl.com/y9s9bm26 16 RS - 8,856 miles - $29.9K
- https://tinyurl.com/yd452wp6 16 RS - 29K miles - $28.5K
Link to RDU issues outlined by tuning company: Vorshlag. These guys make fast cars, and they know it. Other info links included (please read the first one)
- http://www.vorshlag.com/forums/showthread.php?p=58372
- https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2017/04/focus-rs-rear-diff-cooler-part-2/
- http://www.focusrs.org/forum/16-focus-rs-performance/53753-senseless-pursuit-rdu-cooling.html
Great video outlining the block cracking issue:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuGodKdRLpE&t=397s
There's a reason tuning company's rebuild the RS motor using the 2.0T block with the 2.3L components. It has a fatal flaw. ^ See above video
Usual disclaimer. I work for Ford but have nothing to do with the mechanical side of things these days and don't know anything official about the mechanical side of the FoRS.n Everything I say here is based off the same public information as anyone else can look up.
That being said. Terry Fair of Vorshlag may build some fast cars and detail some of the best build threads out there, I regular go and catch up on them all, great writer and self promoter. But he's incredibly opinionated and states a lot of things as fact that don't always stand up to scrutiny. He was one of the first to claim that the RDU goes into limp home mode because it over heats. Do you listen to 'The Smoking Tire' podcast with Matt Farah? He has an RS and prior to that had a FiST. He has had both cars tuned by Mountune and is still critical of the standard shock damping. He asked Mountune about the RDU overheating issue last year and they laughed. They stated that there isn't a temp sensor in the RDU so it's nothing to do with overheating that puts it in limp home mode. They state that they can drive it on track without issue for session after session. Many people out there are tracking their cars with no RDU issues (like Stefan above) Mountune suggested to Farah that it was poor driving or driving style issue. I don't know the truth and don't argue that some people are having issues, but I wanted to point out that the blame being apportioned to the root cause of the issue appears to be wrong.
There are plenty of things in modern cars that aren't directly measured but calculated.
Oil life indicators for instance, could the ECU be shutting down the RDU based on coolant/oil/cylinder head temps and throttle load?
Just speculation.
collinskl1 said:
It is unfortunate that we owners have to deal with this, but it's being taken care of and it's still a hell of a car. It's not for everyone, but I enjoy mine.
kanaric said:
The same thing plagued the MK3 Supra and IDK why people complained about that. Just replace the headgasket and it's good and you have a nice bulletproof engine now.
Except you don't have a bulletproof engine, because it is prone to crack blocks near cylinder 2. Please watch the embedded video about the issue.
@collinskl1 They are two separate issues. No one is saying there's a connection between the two except for those just entering the thread. Please watch the embedded video about the issue.
TLDR: There is little reinforcement in the crank case nearest the Cylinder 2 head stud. Thus, high pressures within the combustion chamber (which are in relation to torque development) provide enough lateral and vertical force to crack the block near that location. This is why tuners are rebuilding Focus RS engines using the 2.0L Ecoboost engine block, and the 2.3L internals, because the 2.3L open deck design is fatally flawed.
Ok and for some of us 350hp is more than enough. For the folks that want more power, why complain that they have to pay more money?
Open deck blocks are nothing new and they have their limitations, just a fact of life. Look at the hoops some of the Honda folks had to jump through with their open deck motors.
For those curious about the RDU and how the temperature is calculated, here's Mishimoto's testing series with their car:
https://www.mishimoto.com/engineering/2016/12/diffs-hot-take-easy-part-1-rear-differential/
Basically it calculates from the temp sensor in the PTU and performs a calculation based around that. So adding a cooler to the PTU and RDU wouldn't hurt if you drive tight tracks in high heat without allowing the car to cool down between sessions.
For me, my take away is this: If you're going to hammer your street car on non-competition track days, maybe slow down a little when the car tells you to? I can say from experience that the RS is more than fast enough to get yourself into serious trouble on the track and still drive home afterward. If you're building one to compete in a series or Time Attack? Fine, yeah you'll want to make some changes for longevity, performance, serviceability.
For those that are complaining or bashing them, please go drive one in anger and then come back and tell us what you think. Those of us who waited through all of Ford's PR and Production screw ups (seriously Adrian, if you can pass along a message to those in charge that they dropped the ball with how they handled the people that ordered their cars and basically left them wandering around trying to find any info about their order, let alone the dealers that gouged people over them and Ford's compliance with this) and have them in our hands and drive them, most of us truly enjoy the car and understand they have their limitations.
If you truly don't like them, don't buy one and go buy something else, there's lots of other options on the market. GRM obviously is in love with the Civic Type R (I'm sure its great, but the styling isn't for me) and others prefer the Golf R or the Audi RS3 among other hot hatches.
BTW, if anyone is in the PNW and wants to drive one in anger, let me know. I'll gladly take someone for a ride, share an autocross event, etc. with a fellow GRM'er who is curious about the cars.
collinskl1 said:
Yeah, I'm missing the connection between incorrect headgasket installed at the factory and cracked blocks.
It is mandatory to expect to be able to get 500whp from any turbo car by turning the boost up.
I guess this is the theory?
Note: I was under the impression that the FoRS had an aluminum block.
Note note: A local shop has a 500whp Ecoboost Mustang. No word on if the head is ratchet strapped to the oil pan or not.
Stefan said:
Ok and for some of us 350hp is more than enough. For the folks that want more power, why complain that they have to pay more money?
Open deck blocks are nothing new and they have their limitations, just a fact of life. Look at the hoops some of the Honda folks had to jump through with their open deck motors.
This.
The 2.5l Volvo engine used in the previous generation Focus RS is known for cracking the liners at higher than stock boost, because the 83mm bore is just a little too much for the block geometry.
Solution? Run an earlier block if you want to go for big power. If you want something that you can lean on with OE reliability expectations, LEAVE IT STOCK. They would have turned the wick up more at the OE level if they could make it live with those kind of expectations.
Adrian_Thompson said: Many people out there are tracking their cars with no RDU issues (like Stefan above) Mountune suggested to Farah that it was poor driving or driving style issue. I don't know the truth and don't argue that some people are having issues, but I wanted to point out that the blame being apportioned to the root cause of the issue appears to be wrong.
IIRC, they were also having problems because they were left foot braking. Not only is that bad practice, but it kicks the car in and out of transferring power rearward.
Like people who "creep" a lot at traffic lights and subsequently burn up the clutches in their DCT transmissions, it sounds like a cse of the car punishing people who drive with bad technique. There's something oddly satisfying about that.
Stefan said:
For those that are complaining or bashing them, please go drive one in anger and then come back and tell us what you think.
If I bash the FoRS, would that get me a chance to drive one? Because I'll do that if that is what it takes.
At first I was turned off by the idea of HAL playing with electronic dampers and diff clutch jiggery pokery to do the handling bits. Then I got the S60R, which also does all that (substituting brake torque vectoring for individual wheel torque), and I'm SOLD.
OTOH, teh R (same engine block as the previous-gen Focus RS, but with a hee-yuuge turbo) is only a couple hundred pounds heavier than a FoRS, and allegedly makes a tad over 50 fewer horsepower, but it has almost the same straight line acceleration. So something is "odd".
(Even more odd than hearing the ABS motor engage when you're at 70% throttle accelerating through a corner)
Stefan said:
BTW, if anyone is in the PNW and wants to drive one in anger, let me know. I'll gladly take someone for a ride, share an autocross event, etc. with a fellow GRM'er who is curious about the cars.
Wait, I live in the PNW. Heck, I'm even in the same town. And I have a helmet 
Ford dealer 5 minutes up the street from me has a blue RS that has sat in front of the store for probably 6 months. Nice to look at when I go to work but I can't imagine having to sit on that car until right buyer comes around.
In reply to dxman92 :
The ones sitting on them still try to gouge with markups. The ones that drop that BS sold them in a few weeks.
Many also don’t allow test drives, which is stupid considering the number of people tossed the keys for Mustangs and the like, smh.
In reply to thatsnowinnebago :
Come on down! :)
In reply to Knurled. :
They definitely are playing with the boost levels under acceleration and it’s tuned more for mid range power. There’s also the launching a manual AWD turbo car consistently and nailing the shifts to get the best times, etc. so tons of variables at play.
