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wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr PowerDork
3/28/21 10:04 p.m.
DirtyBird222 said:
Keith Tanner said:
SnowMongoose said:

I wonder how much time Mercedes saved by exceeding track limits for all those laps before Max did it once and was shut down immediately. 

If you were watching, Max was way outside the lines on T4 over and over again before both he and Lewis were told to knock it off. I think the commentators even mentioned it. It was okay for everyone until it wasn't, and then it wasn't okay for anyone anymore. By the time Max blew T4 in the pass attempt, it was not okay and he knew it. I think he was pretty much out of tire and there just wasn't enough grip for that move.

Hamilton was the first to use it and continued to do so. Red Bull complained, started to do the same, stewards said nothing to worry about until Verstappen used it to overtake.....

Naw, max was aware before the pass.  Like 2 or 4 laps  before.

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 PowerDork
3/28/21 10:12 p.m.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Track limits are not a big deal in the race until they are- like when you make a pass outside of the limits.  Which has always been bad.

Also, some of the drivers in the post race interviews were asked about track limits- and all of them said that they were told going wide in turn 4 was ok.  But I don't see that applying during a pass.

 

If it's okay to use in the first place it should be fine for overtaking. 

And yea these surgical tracks that lack real character that F1 utilizes don't really offer any penalty for going off track. 

steronz
steronz Reader
3/28/21 10:37 p.m.

I think I'm in the minority of people who have no issue with the "excessive" paved run-off areas on modern tracks.  Grass, gravel, walls, and sausage curbs are all fine and dandy until it's your favorite driver who gets pushed wide while trying to overtake a backmarker and has nowhere to go.  Drivers who push the limits and take themselves out of the race are one side of the coin, but drivers who get screwed by circumstances outside of their control are the other.

The problem as I see it is the FIA's nonsensical definition of "gaining an advantage" to mean nothing more than overtaking someone.  As others have pointed out, using the runoff is an advantage 100% of the time, or else the drivers wouldn't be out there.  Even if the advantage is just "I didn't want to get sideswiped by the backmarker I was overtaking."  That's still an advantage.

The worse example of this was I think in Canada several years back, when Hamilton was chipping away at Rosberg's lead by something like a half a second a lap and was set to challenge for the position before the end of the race.  Rosberg overcooked it going into a chicane and used the runoff area to full effect, flooring it through the runoff and thereby erasing a half dozen or so laps of Lewis' pace advantage.   That was clearly an example of exceeding the track limits to gain an advantage, but it wasn't during an overtake.

In my ideal world, ever foray over the white line would trigger an automatic review by an actual human who would put the move into one of 4 categories.  1) Driver was avoiding some nonsense that wasn't their fault -- no consequences. 2) Driver was at fault but no substantial advantage gained (say, they overcooked it into T1 and had to use the runoff, or they misjudged T4 and went 4 off) -- a 5 second penalty every 3 strikes. 3) Driver was at fault and a substantial time advantage was gained -- 5 second time penalty. 4) Driver used the runoff to gain a position -- must return position.

This may be asking too much but it seems sensible.  Taking it track by track, corner by corner just seems like you're asking for drivers to constantly see what they can get away with.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
3/28/21 10:37 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I'd like to know if the teams figured something out about switching on the hards - that second set seemed to work much better on the Mercs than the first. Maybe they have a sharp drop in performance and then level off again, that would explain the yo-yo between Max and Lewis. 

Lewis went out like a rocket on his first set of hards to get a gap on Max.  He was more relaxed on the second set.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/28/21 11:12 p.m.

Rewatching, I was wrong. Lewis was driving off the outside of T4. Max was told "it's okay, go for it". Stewards eventually said "you guys knock that off". From that point on, it was uncool and could attract a penalty even if it wasn't in a pass. It was always uncool as part of a pass.

I figured the initial few laps were probably one of the things they did differently on the second hards. Max didn't do that.

Jim Pettengill
Jim Pettengill HalfDork
3/29/21 12:44 a.m.

Also lighter fuel load on the second set, although I wouldn't think that would make that much difference, maybe 35 - 45 pounds load per tire?

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/29/21 7:30 a.m.
DirtyBird222 said:
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

Track limits are not a big deal in the race until they are- like when you make a pass outside of the limits.  Which has always been bad.

Also, some of the drivers in the post race interviews were asked about track limits- and all of them said that they were told going wide in turn 4 was ok.  But I don't see that applying during a pass.

 

If it's okay to use in the first place it should be fine for overtaking. 

And yea these surgical tracks that lack real character that F1 utilizes don't really offer any penalty for going off track. 

Seems like it would but it's not.  

In terms of these paved run off tracks- it would be nice if they put a surface on them where it would penalize the driver.  Maybe make it massively abrasive or something- so you still get the "safety" (which is very debatable) but there are actual consequences for going off in the medium term.  It's kind of silly that they even need rules for going all 4 off the track- given that it's not impossible to make the surface really bad for the cars.

trigun7469
trigun7469 SuperDork
3/29/21 9:19 a.m.

I am sure Ocon will have better races this year and maybe Renault will have better luck on other tracks. I have to imagine there will be a driver lineup change in 2022. I am not sure Alonso has the Kimi style personality to battle for maybe a 10th place and Ocon does not look like someone who is established on the team. Gasley I am sure is looking for options, not sure if Renault would be a upgrade. Vettel had a terrible weekend, he is in a better situation then last year, but on the straights he looked like he was standing still and Honda made some real progress. I don't know if it's Hamilton and/or Wolf in the heads of their competitors that forces them into mistakes. Max could have waited to make the move on the straight and the call from RB to give back the position frown, that could be debated. The bottom line is I think that RB had a advantage during the weekend and could not capitalize with a win, Mercedes is a hard team to beat as we have seen the last 8 years. Hopefully this years races will continue to be close.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/29/21 9:31 a.m.

Max said he did get a call to return the position pretty much immediately. From the post-race press conference:

Q: And the incident at Turn 4, did you know immediately that you were going to have to give the position back?

MV: I knew that I ran out of the track limits, yeah, and then at Turn 8 they told me, so I gave the position back out of 10. It is what it is.

(People keep asking the same question) 

MV: Well, if I would have let him by later then it’s an unfair way of giving the position back because then you’re so close and it’s an easy DRS pass so I had to do it after Turn 10. 

MV: No, I got the call in Turn 8, on the exit so I let him by out of 10, because between 8 and 10 it’s a bit tricky to do that and then I tried again. Just didn’t have the grip any more.

Colin Wood
Colin Wood Associate Editor
3/29/21 10:17 a.m.

Here are some stats we found over on F1's media site. We thought we should share since it's some interesting information:

accordionfolder
accordionfolder SuperDork
3/29/21 10:31 a.m.
Javelin (Forum Supporter) said:

Anybody else catch Tsunoda's pass on Stroll for 9th? Impressive stuff!

Looks like Perez has what it takes for RB to bring the constructors fight to Merc. McLaren looked impressive! Ferrari managed to not be half bad, either. Alonso was scrappy but reminiscent of his McHonda days... Poor Gasly, that's his best track and one mistake cost him guaranteed points.

That was from WAYYYYYY back. Made Stroll look like a chump.

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
3/29/21 2:48 p.m.

So far everything I have read here on the forum regarding how to handle crossing "off the racing surface" has already been tried if my memory is correct:

  1. different grip tarmac - Tried and was found to be a potential safety risk as every tire gets deflated and tip over is more likely. Even a victim of a push gets severely punished or someone avoiding a crash. So mostly removed.
  2. Penalize every one crossing the line - tried for a very short time, like a race or two I think, then penalties mounted up to a massive cluster of mess. 
  3. No paved runoff area at all - Can work but fans complained about beached cars too often causing yellow flags and such so F1 has made a point to remove them to keep the show going. plus safety was an issue as some venues.
  4. Evaluate every excursion - Kind of the current method, initial analysis is performed then forwarded to race control and or stewards for them to review if it penalty worthy. That takes time. If the call is iffy then it takes maybe a minute which is about a lap. Two cars both smoking tires trying to out break each other maybe no penalty as they are both losing time . 

I think the Rosberg example brought up was the worst case, IMO he definitely deserved a penalty. Sometimes they get penalized sometimes not. 

The Bahrain rules I found to be simple and I understood them. I was confused that others were confused. The corner 4 exit was treated the same as every other part of the track during the race. But it had special rules during practice and qualifying. And in the end had nothing to do with the request for Max to give back the position to Hamilton. 

Per Masi: “Red Bull were actually given an instruction immediately by myself that I suggested they relinquish that position as listed in the Sporting Regulations, which they did. It wasn’t for exceeding track limits – it was for gaining a lasting advantage by overtaking another car off the race track.”

In effect if he made that pass off track at any other corner the situation would have played out the same. 

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
3/29/21 2:53 p.m.
Streetwiseguy said:
Keith Tanner said:

I'd like to know if the teams figured something out about switching on the hards - that second set seemed to work much better on the Mercs than the first. Maybe they have a sharp drop in performance and then level off again, that would explain the yo-yo between Max and Lewis. 

Lewis went out like a rocket on his first set of hards to get a gap on Max.  He was more relaxed on the second set.

Exactly I could tell after his second lap from the pitstop that Hamilton seemed to settle into a race pace to make it to the end of the race plus some laps to give him tire for a fight if needed. Lewis has been in the reverse situation before. He and his team probably understood that Max could catch him but to run that pace would probably leave Max with similar tires to Lewis'. It actually didn't work out for Hamilton it is just that Max still hasn't learned to time when to make his move. He had laps and tire to get Lewis but moved too soon. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/29/21 3:00 p.m.

It was still a bit of a gamble to take a set of tires that just lasted 16 laps and assume they'd last 28, though! I did figure it was probably the break-in, we've seen that before.

Max was out of tire by the time he tried that move on Lewis, he said so himself in that quote above. He'd burned them off on the first laps, like Lewis on the first set. It was pretty much now or never by that point.

Advan046
Advan046 UltraDork
3/29/21 3:12 p.m.
  1. Hamilton - YEAH! Masterfully done race. He made great effort to win with a less than fastest car. Similar to his later McLaren wins. He did the best he could which was better than everyone else.
  2. Max - Don't like him but hey he is fast and I think he maybe needs to get his head around in race tactics a bit better but I think he is right to not really trust RB. They used to win but just don't seem to know how to do it with these turbo cars. Unfortunately he just doesn't make moves work when needed at times.
  3. Bottas -
  4. Norris - Nice solid drive with aggression where needed. I am happy he was able to have a solid start against Ricciardo
  5. Perez - IDK did just as good as Gasly and Albon. We will see by end of May if RB is really a one car team....
  6. Leclerc- Sneaky as ever, he destroyed Vettel the last two years and seems to be a real deal.
  7. Ricciardo - Nice solid drive with aggression where needed. I am happy he was able to have a solid start to the season.....wink
  8. Sainz - !!!! impressed that he did so well. I figured the Ferrari would be so different that he might have been down in 15th like Vettel was last year. I guess it speaks volumes about him and provides more footnote to Vettel
  9. Tsunoda - YES I am impressed. He is in a good team with a good team mate and I think they will start to pressure McLaren.
  10. Stroll - I think we are starting to see why he hasn't been happy that his Dad bought the team. They seem to be falling off but 2022 is the real year to see how they do. I expect them to keep falling down the order like HAAS.
  11. Kimi - Mmmmmm I don't think he is going to have fun this year. A nice battle with Russell but just slogged the way home.
  12. Giovinazzi - I never understood how this guy was in F1 but have to say... He has come a long way from spinning every session it seemed.
  13. Ocon - Race trashed by Vettel but then again the Alpine seems very off pace from where I expected the car to be.
  14. Russell - Still the best in a car that just can't do anything. He had some battles and I hope he does get points this year given that Haas and attrition may open up some opportunities.
  15. Vettel - Still sucks in Green. Since Ricciardo beat him at RB I think Vettel has shown year over year that these cars just don't work for him. Another reason for Lance to be upset. The only thing he can bring is more strategic experience on how to move forward during the race. But he doesn't have to be in the car to do that. 
  16. Schumacher - Maybe nothing more to say than he has to drive a HAAS this year.

Gasly I hope he gets a clean run next time. Latifi IDK yet. Alonso, meh. Mazepin I wish wasn't on the grid. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/29/21 3:39 p.m.

I think Haas is in for a world of hurt this year. Their car has an obvious handling problem (three spins and a crash during Q1 and the first few laps) but they don't have an experienced driver to help them sort it out. Even their test driver (Fittipaldi) is pretty green. I think that car is going to continue to bite drivers all year long. They should ask Ferrari if they can borrow LeClerc for a session to get some feedback.

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Dork
3/30/21 5:51 a.m.

The whole track limits thing makes me angry,every track has a white line at both edges so why is it even a question.

 

 Put a tire over it and its a penalty every single time,let the penalties add up and the drivers bitch who cares.

 

 These are supposed to be the best and most accurate drivers in the world....seems they don't hit the armco at Monaco every lap do they now do they.

 

 Good race but I see how quick Mercedes was to get their car sorted between the 1st test and the 1st race,they'll be uncatchable most races again this yr I suspect.

 

 

CAinCA
CAinCA GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/30/21 11:42 a.m.

I started watching MotoGP and Indycar again last season. IMHO those series are more exciting to watch most of the time. I used to really enjoy F1 but the 7 years of MB domination have taken the fun out of it for me. 

Tom1200
Tom1200 SuperDork
3/30/21 12:01 p.m.

In reply to CAinCA :

I was a Schumacher fan and I am a Hamilton fan but..........................I really want to see him challenged this year. When Schumacher / Ferarri were dominating I'd watch the opening two laps then the last ten laps, it was so boring. I don't want a repeat of that.

As for Max's off track; no different than if a driver cut the chicane, it was the right call. With that said I would have done exactly as Max did, he saw an opening and took it. Unfortunately it didn't work out for him.

trigun7469
trigun7469 SuperDork
3/30/21 12:27 p.m.

In reply to Advan046 :

I don't think Vettel sucks, I just wonder if Ferrari took the fun out of racing for him. When he goes out of favor of a team, he self destructs, same happened at RB. I don't think one race means that it is over and he sucks, but I wonder if he might seek retirement after this year.  He is not a brand like Hamilton, seems to be a down to earth person and can imagine that he would enjoy retirement. Hamilton on the other hand I would seriously doubt, he retires at the end of the year. I think Max suffers for not being in F2 and gaining the experience needed to pass properly, ton of talent, but this year is going to be another whiff. I don't buy that RB has the better car, Bottas was miles ahead in 3rd place. This is Wolf's strategy to push the team forward.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
3/30/21 1:10 p.m.

A lot of people dismiss Lewis due to the fact that he's in the best car.  I think that thought applies far more to Seb in the pre-turbo V6 Red Bull than it does to Lewis.

He was sorta competitive in the cheater Ferrari, but has never really been a big threat otherwise.  Certainly hasn't overwhelmed his team mates.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/30/21 1:46 p.m.

Vettel is a pretty strong brand in Germany if my German friends are any guide. But he is definitely a more private person than Hamilton and I suspect he'll disappear from view when he retires. This year will be a real test to see if he has what it takes to build up a team. First, Otmar has to stop complaining about the rule change and just get on with things.

It's not just Seb falling out of favor in a team - remember the first couple of years of the hybrids. Ricciardo walked all over him. There was something about that naturally aspirated Red Bull that really suited Seb and he just hasn't found it again. I remember reading it was something about his driving style and the blown diffuser.

CAinCA
CAinCA GRM+ Memberand Reader
3/30/21 1:47 p.m.
Tom1200 said:

In reply to CAinCA :

I was a Schumacher fan and I am a Hamilton fan but..........................I really want to see him challenged this year. When Schumacher / Ferarri were dominating I'd watch the opening two laps then the last ten laps, it was so boring. I don't want a repeat of that.

As for Max's off track; no different than if a driver cut the chicane, it was the right call. With that said I would have done exactly as Max did, he saw an opening and took it. Unfortunately it didn't work out for him.

I started watching F1 around 2000. Between 2004 and 2010 there were 6 different champions and most of the championships went down to the last race or two of the season. Then Red Bull went for three more. Then MB came in for the next seven. I'd like to see more drivers with an actual shot at winning. That's what I've enjoyed about Indy. The cars are all pretty equal so it comes down to set up, strategy and the driver.

 

Last season MotoGP was on another level altogether. The championship lead was traded several times. The races were action packed and unpredictable. This year's season opener was the same. 

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/30/21 2:17 p.m.

In reply to CAinCA :

I like Indycar, too, but I would not bin them in being more competitive- last season, 2 teams won 12 out of the 14 races....  Just like it has been for I don't know how long.  Sato's win at Indy and Herta's win at Mid-Ohio were the exceptions to Penske and Ganassi.

But F1's failure to be competitive is 100% up to every team not named Mercedes.  Especially Ferrari- who have had the same control over everything that Mercedes has- at least Red Bull can use the engine as an excuse.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/30/21 2:17 p.m.

I think the solution to the "exceeding track limits" thing is to put an automated sensor in the car and some kind of marker in the corner.  If it figures out that you've gone too wide then it reduces the amount of battery assist you get on the next lap or something like that.

You'd still need to keep the "leaving the track and gaining an advantage" rule for passing situations though.

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