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Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
1/6/09 11:56 a.m.

That little bitty Daimler hemi V8 would be some kinda cool. Too bad that, as you say, they aren't exactly thick on the ground.

My bud is wanting to just lose that big cast iron lump completely. Can't say as I blame him. My GT6+ was a fun car but really nose heavy. Combine that with the cost cutter Rotoflex rear suspension and yeah it had handling issues.

v6spitfire
v6spitfire New Reader
1/26/09 10:44 p.m.

Although I built a complete custom chassis, a 90* GM V6 can be made to fit in between the factory frame rails and sit back far enough WITHOUT having to hack up the fire wall. That means NO LOSS OF LEG ROOM!!

Disadvantages - No way a GM trans will fit without modifying the trans tunnel. Hood height also becomes an issue.

Another idea - use a Buick V6. There is enough room in the engine bay and the deck height of the Buick blocks is lower. Stage II Buick parts are found fairly easily on e-bay. 400Hp is not a unrelaistic number to achieve for a properly built naturally aspirated deal.

I also thought about a Mopar Turbo 2.2L. Small, light, and can be mounted front to back depending on trans choice. With a "Big Boy" turbo kit from Mopar, 350hp is easy.

racerdave600
racerdave600 Reader
1/27/09 8:54 a.m.

I'm not sure of what some of these motors weight, but that needs to be a major consideration, along with the transmission and rear end. No way the standard Triumph stuff can handle the upgrade.

What immediately came to mind is a stroked Z motor. I think they can be stroked to like 3.9 liters or some other insanity such as that, giving over 300hp. As a bonus, they sound somewhat like the original, but of course are bigger. The original is only 2 liters, so for an inline, they are stll somewhat smallish.

The Supra motor also came to mind and from there the sky's the limit for hp.

For an inexpensive route, a Miata motor with a supercharger or turbo.

Ian_F
Ian_F New Reader
1/27/09 10:42 a.m.
spitfirebill wrote: I've seen of one guy that moved the GT6 engine back so that it mounted on the front plate like a Spitfire. Of course the firewall has to be cut and such. It really helped the handling due to improved weight distribution.

That would be Paul Tegler's "FIS6" (Fuel Injected Spit 6):

http://www.teglerizer.com/triumphstuff/spit6whiteyFI/spit6whiteyFI_firstsunlight.html

A Daimler Hemi would be cool... although any Hemi is a fairly wide engine, which could pose a problem.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
3/25/09 9:02 p.m.

Jman-what did you guys decide?

ignorant
ignorant SuperDork
3/25/09 9:17 p.m.
v6spitfire wrote: Another idea - use a Buick V6. There is enough room in the engine bay and the deck height of the Buick blocks is lower. Stage II Buick parts are found fairly easily on e-bay. 400Hp is not a unrelaistic number to achieve for a properly built naturally aspirated deal.

I like this. The 231 is a GREAT engine.

dansxr2
dansxr2 Reader
3/26/09 12:18 a.m.

G54B or a 2.3 turbo Ford. Good torque, easy to find, and pretty cheap

Also a 2.5 Toyota Supra strait 6 would be pretty cool also.

Appleseed
Appleseed Reader
3/26/09 2:14 a.m.

Surprised no one mentioned Quad-4. They can be converted to RWD. They look like Offies. Google quad 4 rods.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/26/09 6:29 a.m.

The GT6 swap is a long term project with two other cars in front of it so it's still in the head scratching stage. We both lean toward a boosted Miata motor (mostly because there is just so much aftermarket stuff available) or a TII rotary but that could change.

I hadn't thought of the Q4. I wonder if it's short enough to fit under the snoot? Time to dig out the tape measure.

spitfirebill
spitfirebill HalfDork
3/26/09 7:24 a.m.
JeepinMatt wrote: Anyone else note the irony of a BMW engine powering a British car that is basically a Spitfire?

Oh, no more so than the Merlin engines in the Spanish built ME 109s or in the He 111s still flying.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 Dork
3/26/09 9:39 a.m.

Lexus 4.0 litre 1uzfe V8? Might be a little scary after breathing mods though... don't know if that's what he's after.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/26/09 9:39 a.m.

^^ Bet that led to some interesting supply chain problems during the Big One.

The Buick 231 is too heavy IMHO. A lot of what we are looking to do is to get that huge heavy cast iron lump off the front axle. I was sorta wondering about the Mazda 2.5 V6 but AFAIK there's no easy way to go RWD with it not to mention the steering shaft goes right where I believe the exhaust would go and this would be a problem with just about all of the V engines with the possible exception of the 60 degree Ford and GM V6's which honestly are not really on the radar for this swap. Since part of what we have in mind is fixing the really idiotic stock steering geometry, space on the left side will be at a premium.

93celicaGT2
93celicaGT2 Dork
3/26/09 10:04 a.m.
Jensenman wrote: ^^ Bet that led to some interesting supply chain problems during the Big One. The Buick 231 is too heavy IMHO. A lot of what we are looking to do is to get that huge heavy cast iron lump off the front axle. I was sorta wondering about the Mazda 2.5 V6 but AFAIK there's no easy way to go RWD with it not to mention the steering shaft goes right where I believe the exhaust would go and this would be a problem with just about all of the V engines with the possible exception of the 60 degree Ford and GM V6's which honestly are not really on the radar for this swap. Since part of what we have in mind is fixing the really idiotic stock steering geometry, space on the left side will be at a premium.

There's a guy on youtube that has his Miata with a KLZE 2.5 v6 swap. I don't know exactly what he had to do, but you may want to try to contact him. It looks like a HIGHLY entertaining ride, and it sounds like pure sex.

Ian_F
Ian_F New Reader
3/26/09 11:38 a.m.
Jensenman wrote: Since part of what we have in mind is fixing the really idiotic stock steering geometry, space on the left side will be at a premium.

Hmm... Care to explain? As a Spit6 owner, I agree the steering geometry is a bit... different... compared to modern cars... but "idiotic"?

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/26/09 11:47 a.m.

'Idiotic' as in the bump steer because the tie rods are WAY too short because the rack itself is WAY too long. The Ackerman is bass ackwards because the rack is WAY too far forward. Those things were done at the factory to accomodate the engine's position as cheaply as possible. The Ackerman in particular is a PITA because the outer tire turns more than the inner (it should be the other way around). This means that when the steering is turned far enough, the outer tire can 'push' against the tie rod hard enough to yank the steering out of your hands, particularly if running R comps. It doesn't help that the basic design is prewar.

It's 'fixable', the rack has to be cut down to put the inner tie rod ball joints at ~22" apart. This winds up moving the steering shaft about 1 1/4" to the right. The rack has to move back about 2", this means the front of the suspension 'tower' has to be notched and then reinforced.

Ian_F
Ian_F New Reader
3/26/09 1:27 p.m.

Ah... good to know... I'm interested in seeing how you go about fixing that...

Aren't the rack mounting positions of a Spitfire and GT6 identical?

Besides... what do you want... all they did was take the Herald frame and bolt a swoopy body to it...

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/26/09 4:10 p.m.

The GT6 and Spit frames are nearly identical. Yep, nothing like a mundane bread n' butter Herald frame with some sexy Italian designed tin wrapped around it.

I've already reworked the Abomination's frame and steering rack to fix the bump steer and Ackerman.

I cut a stock steering rack and rewelded it to get the length right. Due to various concerns about mounting different odds and ends the rack itself is shortened compared to the housing, this cut the steering from ~ 2 3/4 turns to ~ 2 1/4 turns but it seems not to have affected the turning circle. The bump steer is about 90% gone, to get the rest I'd have to make the tie rods longer which means I'd have to heat and bend the steering arms on the knuckles. The Spitfire and Miata knuckles both have the outer TR real close to the rotor so that would take a major rework of the brakes to fix that. Or I could lower the steering rack about 2 1/2" and flip the outer ball joints over (that's because the Miata knuckle's tie rod mount point is angled) but that puts the rack dead in the center of the frame meaning a complete rework of everything forward of the firewall. Not worth it for the little bit of bump steer that's left.

The Ackerman thing involved notching the front of the suspension towers and scooting the rack way back. I made a bolt in crossmember to strengthen the suspension towers but the only reason I could do that was the 12A is shorter than the stock 4 banger and could be mounted further back. Otherwise the crossmember would go right through #1 cylinder. Due to the Miata knuckles I also had to raise the rack 1/4". I used a set of the aluminum rack mounts while I was doing all this, man it steers nice now even in extremely tight turns.

All the hard figgerin' is done, I just need to duplicate it on the GT6 if, as and when.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
3/26/09 7:27 p.m.

How much does the stock lump weigh? Pretty much any bike motor with trans is under 200lbs.

Ian F
Ian F Reader
3/27/09 12:18 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: All the hard figgerin' is done, I just need to duplicate it on the GT6 if, as and when.

Wow...

I took a look at my car last night... being a Spit 6, the #2 cylinder sits on top of thte rack... so it looks like my options are limited... oh well...

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/27/09 1:29 p.m.

With stock knuckles, you could: 1) flip the steering arms from side to side (face the tapers upside down 2) move the steering rack to the area of the frame which would be most conducive to fixing the problems which would be the underside 3) trim the frame and then reinforce as necessary to run the steering shaft to the new rack location. Yeah, sounds a LOT easier than it is.

Josh, we thought about bike engines early on. This car will be street driven which means it will need a pretty tough clutch and a reverse. We ruled out bike engines for those reasons. They aren't insurmountable problems but we just idn't see enough of a performance boost to make it worthwhile.

MrJoshua
MrJoshua SuperDork
3/27/09 1:32 p.m.

A little pursuit on the bike motor thing. The easiest way to use a bike motor is to get a driveshaft adapter that slides onto the output shaft (where the sprocket was). The problem with this is with the left side chain of most high powered bikes you end up with the entire engine left of the driveshaft. Great in a right hand drive car-not so much the GT6. I checked on some of the shaft drive bikes and it seems like having the engine transversely mounted in the engine bay might be problematic. Then I found the Vmax. V4, 145 hp, only 2 cylinders wide, left biased shaft drive, etc... Reverse might be and issue, but its a promising motor!

edit-doh! was typing when you posted jman.

mblommel
mblommel New Reader
3/27/09 10:06 p.m.

How about a chevy vortec DOHC inline six or five? Probably plenty cheap in the junkyards by now.

Some info from a biased source:

Chebbie six

friedgreencorrado
friedgreencorrado Reader
3/27/09 10:51 p.m.
Jensenman wrote: ^^ Bet that led to some interesting supply chain problems during the Big One.

IIRC, The Spanish gov't recieved the 109s and 111s during the Civil War, and were converted to Rolls after the 8th Air Force and RAF cut off the supply of Daimler-Benz engines...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispano_Aviacion_Ha_1112

Jensenman wrote: The Buick 231 is too heavy IMHO. A lot of what we are looking to do is to get that huge heavy cast iron lump off the front axle. I was sorta wondering about the Mazda 2.5 V6 but AFAIK there's no easy way to go RWD with it not to mention the steering shaft goes right where I believe the exhaust would go and this would be a problem with just about all of the V engines with the possible exception of the 60 degree Ford and GM V6's which honestly are not really on the radar for this swap. Since part of what we have in mind is fixing the really idiotic stock steering geometry, space on the left side will be at a premium.

My own experience with the GT6 makes me just want to find my old one and restore it. I can recall one very short 6-cyl...but I don't know if it's short enough to fit. VW VR6, of course..if you could mate that up to the Toyota 5-speed the TR6 guys are converting to, and find a diff & shafts that could take the torque, you might have something.

2002maniac
2002maniac New Reader
3/28/09 2:25 a.m.

S2000?

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
3/28/09 7:27 a.m.

VR6... hadn't considered that one. One of VW's engineering successes. Might have to grab the ol' tape measure again... IIRC never used in RWD app so we'd have to fab up a bellhousing. Not insurmountable, though.

S2000 is another good suggestion. Not as easily (er, cheaply!) available as I'd like but ya never know...

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