Help me price my Miata (warning: long post, challenge & Locost ????'s)

Okay, first off sorry for the length of this:

I am 99% sure I am going to sacrifice my Miata for a Locost. reason being is that I posted it on CL and didn't get close to what I was asking for it. Wifey said I might as well keep it and finish the way I has talked about for the past 6 months but my plan for that included a re-body (more on that in a second). I figure that if I'm going to tear it down I might as well build a Locost since 1) their cool as hell 2) it can be cheaper (more on that in a second also) 3) Keith's book keeps saying I should. I still wouldn't mind doing a re-body but that still won't satisfy my craving of saying "I did that myself". Plus I'm a pretty competent welder and can usually figure mechanics put pretty well.

Now if I went the Locost route I figured that I might as well shoot for the moon and build according to Challenge rules, which could potentially make a Locost cheaper than a re-body (by selling off non-used parts). Hence the reason I need the vast GRM community to decide how much the car I already own is worth per rule 7 of the Challenge bible:

7) If parts or vehicles are already owned by the competitor, they must be figured into the budget at fair market value at todays prices.

Now about the car:

The good: 1991 Mazda Miata, 1.6 longnose, 5 speed, open diff. Has Koni STR-T shocks, Flyin' Miata sway bars, Racing Beat springs, 949racing 6UL wheels w/ Hankook RS-2's, Harddog Hardsport roll bar, new rotors and Hawk pads. 142XXX miles. Manual rack, A/C removed. Grant steering wheel.

The bad: Rust, rust, and more rust. Some of it structural that has been patched but it's still there. Exterior has had a lot of work done to it, but underneath is rotted. Needs a clutch slave. Cat was cut out and a piece of flex pipe put in it's place. Top has no rear window and the top itself is starting to crack in places. Maintenance records are sketchy at best. Previous owner said that he had all records but of course couldn't produce them when I bought it. I replaced the valve cover gasket and CAS o-ring and the old gasket was hard as a rock which leads me to believe it was original. Which if that was OEM than that leads me to believe that it may still be the original t-belt also. The coolant hoses also look like the same ones put on 18 years ago.

I did replace a lot of stuff like the v-belt, shifter gaskets, front suspension bushings, ball-joints (upper and lower), Both hubs with newer used units. trans oil (Redline MTL), rear end oil, and some other stuff I can't think of off the top of my head.

Now tell me how much is it worth? I initially took it in when I bought my Solstice to see how much the dealer would give me for it: $800

I put it on CL for $2100 and received 2 offers: $1450 and $1600.

KBB lists trade at $475-$750, and private sale at $1175-$1475 in fair condition. Just glancing at car it is fair condition, but when giving a closer inspection I would be more comfortable saying it was in poor condition.

As mentioned, wifey said since were not broke and don't need the money for me to just keep and do something else with it (really how many guys wives encourage them to KEEP a project? cool wife I haz).

Now the pics, first ones are from I got the car.

Now for current pics:

Cracked Filler Panel

Body filler cracking from when I replaced the rear quarters. Auto-xing caused the body to flex too much.

Drivers door that has about a 1/2 gallon of Bondo in it. Previous owner had a deer run into him when he was driving.

Motor

Body rot (like this in numerous places, including the frame rails).

More rust

More rust (you can even see where I had to cut out the rear control arm to get to the mounting bolt for the shocks)

Trunk/rear shock mounts. Notice how the bolts are so rusted and rounded that they will have to be cut out (don't ask me how I got the new shocks in without removing the mounts)

Interior. The good is that the dash isn't cracked. The radio surround is though.

I continue more ramblings in another post.

Okay to continue:

When selling stuff on Ebay, for Challenge budget sake do you take the amount sold for, or do you have to factor in Ebay/Paypal fees? What if you make money on shipping, can you add that to the amount sold for?

And now for another tid bit I've been thinking about all day.

Has anybody ever seen a driveshaft brake set-up on a car? I used to have a Honda Rincon (ATV) and it had a pretty trick set up where there was a small rotor on the drive shaft to the rear axle and had 1 caliper mounted to the frame. How feasible would this be on a Locost where the weight is lower than your average car? I'm thinking milling out a rotor hat, getting a bolt on rotor, and fabbing up a caliper mount. Upside would be less rotating weight (at least at the wheels, not the driveline), less parts (lighter weight), and less unsprung weight. Would this provide enough stopping power at the rear wheels? The driveshaft rotor weight could be compensated with a lighter flywheel.

Would this work or did I smoke to much crack today?

That's all for now..........

Locost is a slam-dunk, win-win alternative.

Heck, for the work involved In a Locost, added to the fact you already have another street car (Solstice) I say keep it as a racer and enter the challenge with it as is. Patching up the tub you've got is still way way less work than building a Locost. You don't need to add much to the budget just time to do that. If you don't have a trailer then driving a Miata to events is way better than driving a 7. If you want to go to town on it start gutting it. Light weight, street legal, challenge legal autocross and fun car. Don't get me wrong, I love 7's, but you've got a running car here. I say keep and play. For a race car the aesthetics are fine as is, who cares about some cracks here or there?

Land Rovers use a driveshaft emergency brake. Works great until you lift one wheel off the ground with an open diff, then you have no brake Or until the output seal on your transfer case starts to leak and fills your emergency brake drum with 90 weight. The open diff might make a driveshaft-mounted brake questionable, as it would mean you'd lose all braking if one wheel locked up. Wouldn't it? Anyhow...

That's one scabby Miata. Too bad you didn't have this plan when you first got the car, FMV would have been a lot lower I'd be tempted to use the $800 value, but if you use the highest offer you got on CL you'd be beyond reproach. Ask Per.

I got a wife from the same batch as yours. They're awesome.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

Well I have more that $2010 into it the way it sits now, so no challenge there as-is . Also the Solstice has kinda become my auto-x car for at least the next season ( I also have 2 other daily drivers).

I don't mind the work in building a 7. I have been researching builds for about 3 months now and believe me I don't underestimate the amount of work that goes into one. But as the snow will soon be flying here in Wisconsin, it will be time for me to hibernate in the garage until spring. I need SOMETHING to do.

Keith wrote: Land Rovers use a driveshaft emergency brake. Works great until you lift one wheel off the ground with an open diff, then you have no brake Or until the output seal on your transfer case starts to leak and fills your emergency brake drum with 90 weight. The open diff might make a driveshaft-mounted brake questionable, as it would mean you'd lose all braking if one wheel locked up. Wouldn't it? Anyhow...

(Ahh-Hah moment kicks in)

And that's why you are Uber-Dork

Edit: Make that PowerDork!

Keith wrote: I'd be tempted to use the $800 value, but if you use the highest offer you got on CL you'd be beyond reproach. Ask Per.

The dealer was money in the bank, a craigslist offer isn't worth anything until the cash is in hand. I would not pay anything near $1400 for that car and I'm likely to think of $800 as legitimate but... I'd still not give you $800 for it w/o LSD as a locost donor.

I wouldn't bitch at your books if that showed as a $600 car.

Adrian's got a good point - if the tub is done, start stripping it down and make a super lightweight!

find CL listings of similar cars and search for completed ebay listings. that'll help you get a fmv ballpark. post the links and what you think is FMV to the board for the community to ratify and you're set to go from there either building a locost or just improving upon what you've got like Mr. Thompson has suggested. not gonna lie though, those wheels are pretty slick. if you've got another set to toss on for the starting point, that'll help ya.

Keith wrote: Adrian's got a good point - if the tub is done, start stripping it down and make a super lightweight!

The way its rusting... its getting lighter every day

Well seeing as how you feel it's worth more than what was offered, I would say your going to have a hard time convincing people it's worth less. You're saying it's more than $2100 in parts, so I'd say your doing good if you use your $1600 craigslist offer. Using Dealer trade offer is kinda silly. I can take a non-running corvette that is worth FMV of $3500 to a dealer and their going to offer me $1000. That doesn't make it worth $1000, it still has a FMV of $3500. Dealer trade is by definition a low-ball. If we start using it as FMV for Challenge cars I don't think that would end well. I mean now that I have my Subaru 360 shell that I paid $1 for, and then an additional $200 to get it home so I have $201 into it. That's it's start, but I could just saunter over to my local Dealership and ask them what they'd give me trade in on a rusty, non-tittled shell and they'll say I can put it in their dumpster for Free. If I can use Dealer trade my $201 dollar shell becomes FREE since I already own it?

nocones wrote: Well seeing as how you feel it's worth more than what was offered, I would say your going to have a hard time convincing people it's worth less. You're saying it's more than $2100 in parts, so I'd say your doing good if you use your $1600 craigslist offer. Using Dealer trade offer is kinda silly. I can take a non-running corvette that is worth FMV of $3500 to a dealer and their going to offer me $1000. That doesn't make it worth $1000, it still has a FMV of $3500. Dealer trade is by definition a low-ball. If we start using it as FMV for Challenge cars I don't think that would end well. I mean now that I have my Subaru 360 shell that I paid $1 for, and then an additional $200 to get it home so I have $201 into it. That's it's start, but I could just saunter over to my local Dealership and ask them what they'd give me trade in on a rusty, non-tittled shell and they'll say I can put it in their dumpster for Free. If I can use Dealer trade my $201 dollar shell becomes FREE since I already own it?

Nocones-as long as you had a beer or sat and chatted with SvRex I think you were visiting a friend and happened to pick up a car while there. Challenge budget: $1

Thanks for the replies so far.

For the record I'm not trying to convince people it's worth less than the original $2100 I was asking, but there was a thread just a little while where it was posted that people sometimes think that there car is worth more than what it is. I'm trying to decipher if this is one of those cases. Also we all know that Miata prices are skewed in the real world in correlation to KBB or NADA.

It would be easier for me to get a fair value on the car as a whole and I can just take whatever I want for the Locost (wheels included). That being said I know it would end up in my favor as I can sell the rollbar, shocks, springs, and sways, and interior bits and easily come close to max sell limit ($1005 or 50% of value), There by almost giving me a free drivetrain and wheels. Fair? I don't know that's why I'm asking. Reading the rule as it stands it would be if there was a fair price placed upon the whole car. It would also save the hassle of being nickel and dimed for all the little crap that I've already done (plugs, wires, etc...).

That's why I ask the masses....

Plan B would be to take the initial purchase price of the car and start adding in what I want and only counting that towards the budget. The problem there is that I don't have any of the receipts for 90% of the stuff and it would have to be based on trust. I never has the intention making This car Challenge fodder when I started working on it.

Either way I'm not going to be angry, I just want a reasonable starting point and work from there.

BTW, it's obvious that the wheels are going to be the biggest hit to the budget, but in reality I got them pretty darn cheap from a member on Miata.net who sold his car. I traded a camera for them.

Edit: for all kinds crap :)

"The good: 1991 Mazda Miata, 1.6 longnose, 5 speed, open diff. Has Koni STR-T shocks, Flyin' Miata sway bars, Racing Beat springs, 949racing 6UL wheels w/ Hankook RS-2's, Harddog Hardsport roll bar, new rotors and Hawk pads. 142XXX miles. Manual rack, A/C removed. Grant steering wheel."

Because of that stuff you have more than an $800 Miata. If you aren't using something, create a new listing without it and relist the car. 6UL's and Hankooks are nice, but $100 steelies w/free fat hoosiers work waaaay better for challenge budget. Roll bar-not gonna fit your locost, your spring/shock combo is probably not going to fit, etc...
Id say without the rollbar and 6ul's you have a $1000 or so Miata. If the board approves that price you can then sell off the spring/shock combo, interior bits, etc... to knock off as much of your starting price as possible. Start from their and build to your hearts content. All pending board approval of course.

there was a guy near Berrian Springs, Michigan or near St. Joe that had a mint body on here for $1000 - it was missing engine and interior stuff - you should look at getting a body and doing that.

this guy

I kinda like the idea of returning the car to "as bought" condition and using that price as the FMV. You put some money into that puppy, but as long as the parts aren't on the car when you start building it as a Challenge car then they don't count. Wheels and shocks are two of the big ones, of course.

I think the Locost plan is the best one. No matter how much you work on a Miata, you can't touch the speed of a Locost.

For those of you south of Iowa, the rust on this car is a death sentence. The cracks where it was patched give you an idea of the extent of it. Having been down Rust Bucket Highway myself too many times, then experiencing the opposite, my advice is to go with the locost idea.

I've been away for awhile, but I'd put the FMV somewhere close to half of the new price of the aftermarket parts on the car, plus something around scrap value for the shell. I would not dispute your $600 figure. We paid the $100 asking price for the $2002-4 Z-car shell, already set up for a SBC, but it was a rustbucket. Had I known how many hours I was about to spend on it, I would have walked away. Erik