Hey guys,
I'm currently debating switching around my garage a bit (Rotrex Miata, S2000 -> BRZ) and I'm just trying to do some future planning. I have run literally every 200TW tires in the past and stick to my favorites: RE71R, Rival S 1.5. However, I find that I wear these tires out quite quickly when using them on the street for nice day/weekend driving scenerios...
My question is this: For someone like me, who does ~5 track days a year (I also instruct some) would a separate set of R7/A7's last me two years time? Do they tend to REALLY fall off in speed/feel after some heat cycles? Can a single set last two years on a sub ~2800 lbs car? They will be stored in a climate controlled environment at all times when not in use. I switch to race pads every track day if that matters.
Thanks!
R7s would be what you want for track days. They handle the heat better than tires designed to grip from cold (autocross formulas). It takes a lap or two to get enough heat into the R7s for them to really work but then you should be good until they cord.
I run R7's on the race car (~2400 lbs w/ driver, FWD) and have had great wear characteristics. I only run A7's for qualifying depending on conditions but they tend to get greasy after a hot lap or two. Obviously wear will really depend on the track surfaces, alignment, and your driving. I generally get about 20-30 sessions before I retire them and I think total falloff is probably ~1-1.5s on most tracks.
I think for a more casual track car you could probably use them for two years if you take care of them. Personally I've run them right down to the cords and they still felt stable/predictable.
If you're using them for HPDE and not competition, then I'd stay with DOT tire options. Hoosiers have higher limits and greater speed potential, but things also can go much more sideways when they and the chassis are pushed beyond their limits. Seeing that there's no competitive advantage to be had by the extra tenths found, I don't see the benefit of developing an addiction to purple crack.
captdownshift said:
If you're using them for HPDE and not competition, then I'd stay with DOT tire options. Hoosiers have higher limits and greater speed potential, but things also can go much more sideways when they and the chassis are pushed beyond their limits. Seeing that there's no competitive advantage to be had by the extra tenths found, I don't see the benefit of developing an addiction to purple crack.
Going to echo what the captain said...
Hoosiers will also take away everything audible you learned from street tires at the limit.
What about something like the Michelin PS4S?
Awesome feedback so far guys.
To answer some points:
- Noted on the A7 vs. R7. I'll only consider the R7's from now on.
-Enginenerd -> If I can get two years out of them at $1,200 a set I would be happy
-Capt/Space -> Gotcha. Appreciate the input. They are just for HPDE's but my main issue is that I am overheating the super 200's and they are getting greasy at the ~10 minute mark. The problem with the 100's like the RC1, AR1, R888R is that beyond anything they seem really slow and lacking in the feel department compared to the RE71R or Rival S 1.5 etc. Because of that, PS4S's are deff out.
goingnowherefast said:
The problem with the 100's like the RC1, AR1, R888R is that beyond anything they seem really slow and lacking in the feel department compared to the RE71R or Rival S 1.5 etc. Because of that, PS4S's are deff out.
So we're knocking a 300tw tire out because of negative feedback related to 100tw tires??
The PS4S are a small step below the super200's in grip and gives performance in wet and dry conditions and will last longer than the super 200's
Tire Rack PS4S and Conti ECS Comparison Data
Tire rack Super 200's Test
you're ultimately going to do whatever you think is best. But when you look at most of the OLOA field with 4000 transit miles and a "days worth" of track testing and tires have most of their life... i think that speaks volumes
In reality, the difference between the MP4S/ECS category tire and the RE71r/Rival s is bigger than those graphs show (not to mention variation from being tested at different times).
The main difference I've found is the ability to multitask, or combined mode traction as well as feel - they're a more compliant construction than the 200 class. The 3xx treadwear "Max performance" tires tend to have better wet grip capabilities than the 200 tw tires do, but do lag relative to the 200s in ultimate dry grip.
It does ultimately come down to asking what your goals are. If you're just looking for a tire that can take abuse on track and last, the longer wearing 200s might be better like the RS4, or 615k+. All of this does nothing to answer your question about the ability to use a set of R7 Ho Hos (which are DOT tires, btw) for a couple years.
To drive to and from the track and abuse them endlessly, I hear good things about the RS4s.
For minimal cost and holding up to abuse on track, you might call JBTires and see about some R7 take offs. Since you aren't qualifying or chasing the very pointy end of the field, buying a set of tires for 1/3rd (or less) of their new cost due to an hour of track use seems like a no-brainer to me.
Yeah, I had one set of a7s for 4 challenges in a row. They were still very fast on the 4th year.
I wouldn't be worried about shelf life for hpde for a couple years.
IMHO, Hoosier are for competition, given the short life and high price running them for fun gets really expensive really fast. Personally I like either the Toyo RR or Nitto NT01, depending on if you're trying to prioritize grip or life.
I've been running used R7s from John Berget Tire for a while now. Good pricing, and good tires. I always used them because I never cared about being at the pointy end or trying to win the track day, and just wanted to have fun and not worry about destroying my street tires by sliding them around too much.
spacecadet said:
goingnowherefast said:
The problem with the 100's like the RC1, AR1, R888R is that beyond anything they seem really slow and lacking in the feel department compared to the RE71R or Rival S 1.5 etc. Because of that, PS4S's are deff out.
So we're knocking a 300tw tire out because of negative feedback related to 100tw tires??
The PS4S are a small step below the super200's in grip and gives performance in wet and dry conditions and will last longer than the super 200's
Tire Rack PS4S and Conti ECS Comparison Data
Tire rack Super 200's Test
you're ultimately going to do whatever you think is best. But when you look at most of the OLOA field with 4000 transit miles and a "days worth" of track testing and tires have most of their life... i think that speaks volumes
That just peeled my eyes wide open if the numbers are really that close, especially for the PS4S. Frickin tires man, as soon as you think you have a good grasp, there's a comparison that just makes you feel out of the loop.
captainawesome said:
spacecadet said:
goingnowherefast said:
The problem with the 100's like the RC1, AR1, R888R is that beyond anything they seem really slow and lacking in the feel department compared to the RE71R or Rival S 1.5 etc. Because of that, PS4S's are deff out.
So we're knocking a 300tw tire out because of negative feedback related to 100tw tires??
The PS4S are a small step below the super200's in grip and gives performance in wet and dry conditions and will last longer than the super 200's
Tire Rack PS4S and Conti ECS Comparison Data
Tire rack Super 200's Test
you're ultimately going to do whatever you think is best. But when you look at most of the OLOA field with 4000 transit miles and a "days worth" of track testing and tires have most of their life... i think that speaks volumes
That just peeled my eyes wide open if the numbers are really that close, especially for the PS4S. Frickin tires man, as soon as you think you have a good grasp, there's a comparison that just makes you feel out of the loop.
I think we have to remember the test were done on different days, in different conditions. I think really highly of the tirerack tests, but you'll see there's a lot of variation in the test vs. test data. For example: Tirerack has done two different tests with the RE71R seen here:
1. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=234
2. https://www.tirerack.com/tires/tests/chartDisplay.jsp?ttid=239
Because this test was performed on different days in different conditions, some test results were WAY different, notably the wet stopping distance (100.7 ft vs. 110.4 ft) an almost 9% difference. Also a full second difference on a 30 second course. Statistically significant. I have no doubt that I would overheat those tires in no time on the track.
contact info for JBTires?
AngryCorvair said:
contact info for JBTires?
John Berget Tire
262-740-0180
email: jbracingtires@sbcglobal.net
Rodan
Dork
5/31/19 9:59 a.m.
codrus said:
IMHO, Hoosier are for competition, given the short life and high price running them for fun gets really expensive really fast. Personally I like either the Toyo RR or Nitto NT01, depending on if you're trying to prioritize grip or life.
This.
On our NA Miata, my last set of NT01s lasted ~11 events over 4 years, and I think they had more left, but I was forced to store the car in the trailer over last winter and the cold finished them off. I switched to Toyo RR and really like them. The NT01 is just a hair off the best RE71/Rival times for me, but will run those times all day long, and lasts forever. RR is faster, but I've only run one event, so I don't have longevity data yet.
I use one set for the street (ECS), one set for the track (NT01/RR). Bonus factor: I hear the ECS is a pretty decent in the wet if an event gets weather.
In reply to goingnowherefast :
Yeah, I know it's not a back to back test, so it's not 100% conclusive. I think the takeaway for me is how frickin good a summer tire can be while still having daily road manners and usability. I ran three sets of the S Drives and was blown away by the performance. The PS4S looks to be at the pointy end of the field and may become a viable option for my daily tires.
captainawesome said:
In reply to goingnowherefast :
Yeah, I know it's not a back to back test, so it's not 100% conclusive. I think the takeaway for me is how frickin good a summer tire can be while still having daily road manners and usability. I ran three sets of the S Drives and was blown away by the performance. The PS4S looks to be at the pointy end of the field and may become a viable option for my daily tires.
Oh absolutely! And to that point, a lot of this post is kind of about that ya know? If I jump to a BRZ I'd love to run P4S's for a daily tire, and again I'm just poking around for the track set. I think the P4S's are the best summer non-track tire money can buy today.
To answer the OP's original question two year old R7s that have been stored indoors and haven't been frozen will be dang near as fast as new ones. However, If you're fast you're probably not going to get 10 track days out of them. I got about 6 20 min racing sessions on a set on a 1,600 pound Pro-Challenge car. The other thing with R7s is that they're less forgiving on the back side of the traction curve and faster at lower slip angles than 200 tread wear tires.
