How do you choose a machine shop?

I'm looking for some advice on how to choose a machine shop... The engine I'm getting together is a mutt of SAAB parts. It'll be a 2 liter block from the 80's bored out to 2.1L, fitted with a 16V head from a 9-5. I've already got pistons to bump the CR made for it, but I need help with cams and head work. The plan is ITBs and naturally aspirated for HPDE, rallycross, and general performance/street use in my '85 900 notchback.

I'm trying to find a builder or machine shop that can look at the package holistically. I found a place to do the cams, and a place to do the head work, but I'd really like to work with one place that will consider all the aspects of this project. To clarify some of those other aspects, I'm planning to build my intake and exhaust manifolds, but I'd like help with diameters and tube lengths that will work best with my cams and power goals. Speaking of cams, the only data out there for performance SAAB cams are for turbo applications, which might not be too useful in my case being N/A. I'd also be interested in tuning support.

Can you guys offer any advice? Am I better off farming out all the work and scabbing it together myself, or should I keep going through the (proverbial) phone book and calling machine shops? I've gotten some suggestions from acquaintances with engine building and machining experience, but the shops they've suggested haven't shown much interest in my project... I got the feeling that they were pretty formulaic V8 drag race types. I'm located in Tacoma WA for what it's worth.

Interesting project... Have you done any research into SAAB performance yet? You might look @ rally and other motorsports more akin to SAABs for more specifics on none boosted engine performance.

As far as headwork, I have a fair bit of experience, albeit mostly with Toyota multi valve heads... but the principles are the same. As far as SAAB experience, I worked with Jerry Sweet(master SAAB tech from NJ) for a few years.

As far as camshafts... (don't forget adjustable timing gears/sprockets) http://www.abbottracing.net/product.php?id_product=276 http://www.maptun.com/engine-parts/camshafts http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/Saab_900_9000_16V___16v_Turbo.html

I'm sure there are others.......

What are your plans for engine management?

Around here, we pick by Machine Shops that still exist. They seem to be dwindling away sadly.

I would suggest going by word of mouth, especially from other car guys who have done performance builds. Then talking with the Machine shop to make sure they feel comfortable with what you're trying to do and go from there.

I think it would be very hard to find a company to do it all. And would almost be a matter of jack of all trades master of none. My procedure for the head would be.

Pick your valve springs, to determine your max lift. Tell the head guy your max lift Give the flow bench sheet from your head guy to your cam guy Gather parts and assemble

For the exhaust header, look up PipeMax. I think the newest version might be able to do intake manifold design. If it cant, picking runner lengths is much easier on the intake size with itbs I have an excel that does that.

Thanks for the responses guys.

Darren, it seems like there are still a few machine shops around in my area- there does seem to be a strong drag racing community around here, and I can only assume that is what keeps them in business.

Oldskewl, I am definitely tied in with the SAAB community- part of the build is a fairly recent development using a newer head on the older block. I've already done all the mods to make that work. It's the rest of the details I'm stuck on now. The links for cams you included are all listed for turbo engines. While I know that they could work for my application, I have a hunch that I'd be leaving a lot on the table choosing a cam that wasn't developed for a naturally aspirated engine. Do you have experience otherwise? Because it would certainly make my life easier if I didn't have to design a cam on my own since no one bothers with N/A on this engine. Engine development isn't really unique to one marque, but experience with a specific engine is hard to replace. That said, general engine development experience would get me a long way too. There just really isn't much N/A experience in the SAAB community, which is why I asked here. I know there was a guy "claiming" high output numbers on a NG900, but has since passed away. There is another guy in the UK with a very impressive and well document build of an 8V motor, but I don't know that much of that development would apply in a 16V application like mine.

Leafy, doesn't your cam determine your max lift, not the springs?

The coil bind of the springs will limit max lift.
So you can choose the cam, and then find springs that handle the lift without lofting at max RPM(preferred)
or choose the springs, and then find a cam that will not put them into bind.

Carter

For a project like that, you are going to be stuck with the machine shop that has the owner not roll his eyes at you, then grab you by the collar and throw you into middle of the street.

eeny-meeny-miney-mo, dial phone, ask "Have you ever reground a hollow race cam shaft for a BMW?", repeat.

If they say sure, all the time! They can do anything.

The best I can tell you is try to develop a relationship with the company. I use a local guy that I have been using for 25-30 years. He is a small one man shop that has all the proper equipment. The only thing I can pass on is don't come in with an attitude that it is your way or the highway. My guy has forgot more than I will ever know about machining and motor assembly. When he talks I listen.

He has told me stories about guys that have come in and dictated what he was to do and how he was to do it. He either tells them to go away or makes then sign a detailed work order that if needed relives him of the responsibility when the motor blows up. Sad but a necessity of doing business. It is like going to brain surgeon and telling him how to put your head together.

Mezzanine wrote: Oldskewl, The links for cams you included are all listed for turbo engines. While I know that they could work for my application, I have a hunch that I'd be leaving a lot on the table choosing a cam that wasn't developed for a naturally aspirated engine. Do you have experience otherwise? Because it would certainly make my life easier if I didn't have to design a cam on my own since no one bothers with N/A on this engine.

From the minimal research I've done stock cams are about 231 duration (valve off seat for 231 of 720 degrees)

Some of the cams I posted are well over 260, and in one case 272 degrees. Although you can likely run a turbo on cams that extreme, it isn't typically recommended.

What is your desired rpm level you hope to achieve? HP? Can the bottom end internals survive @ your chosen rpm levels?

Dean, thanks for the advice- I am certainly interested in hearing suggestions from experienced people. I have my targets in mind, but am totally open to how I get there.

OldSkewl, The internals are built roughly similar to that of a diesel tractor and are definitely good for 7.5k, which is my ultimate target redline. The factory valve train doesn't experience any valve float at that RPM, but I'll be going with uprated springs as insurance.

I'm only looking for ~160 at the flywheel, but the challenge is to keep the power band broad. I know I can and likely will make a good deal more HP than that, but I want it to be usable as this car will still spend most of its time on the street.

Streetwise, I think you're absolutely right.

depending on where you are Mezz.. I have a 2.1 block and crank you can have. Came out of a 91 that died. Found some odd pieces of metal in the bottom of the pan (top of the trans) but it still ran, but with no power

Since I'd rather help a fellow GRMer, even though I don't particularily like the guy:

http://www.rallyanarchy.com/phorum/index.php

janvanvurpa@gmail.com

John Vanlandingham

I should upgrade that to I personally detest his guts and he is a prick/shiny happy person (if you don't agree with him), BUT, he is a master fabricator and is very knowledgeable. He'd probably love to talk your ears off for hours about what you are planning. Keep in mind he sometimes can take a while to complete projects, so YMMV. His thing is Saabs, he wuvs them.

HiTemp, thanks for the lead- I had to read your post three or four times, trying to figure out why you thought I was an shiny happy person. The first link to rallyanarchy- is that his site, or were you intending to point me to a specific thread.

MadMachine, I am in the Seattle/Tacoma area... I'm guessing you're somewhere on the other side of our continent as dictated by the free heavy part fairy.

It's not "his" site, but if you post, he will come a runnin'.

It works out even insanely better as he is in the Pacific Northwest Area...

Mezzanine wrote: HiTemp, thanks for the lead- I had to read your post three or four times, trying to figure out why you thought I was an shiny happy person. The first link to rallyanarchy- is that his site, or were you intending to point me to a specific thread. MadMachine, I am in the Seattle/Tacoma area... I'm guessing you're somewhere on the other side of our continent as dictated by the free heavy part fairy.

sadly... Atlantic City