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Stefan
Stefan GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 1:04 p.m.

 

Wow.  Just wow. 

 

And a different situation, but at the same track, involving my buddies in their Audi 20VT powered Porsche 924 Turbo:

 

 

and the view from the Civic:

 

Most importantly, the drivers are all ok.  The cars?  Not so much.

spandak
spandak Reader
7/9/19 1:19 p.m.

In the first video it looks like the E36 hit the wall trying to pass on the side? Was he/she off the track? Oof. 

Whos at fault in the second incident? 

Toyman01
Toyman01 MegaDork
7/9/19 1:26 p.m.

First clip looks like a Mustang trying to get out of the way and a BMW deciding to pass anyway.

Number 2 I'd give to the Porsche. Looks like the Civic was moving faster than he expected.  

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 1:30 p.m.

Jeeze that E36 in the first video is a lunatic! Passing completely in the grass?!? Poor Mustang and Miata.

Second one, the Honda was weaving like mad all lap and took out the 924. That said, all of the drivers in that pack were bobbing around like Cassius Clay...

This just reinforces why Lucky Dog, Lemons, ChampCar, etc just do not interest me from a safety and money perspective. This stuff happens way too often.

wae
wae SuperDork
7/9/19 1:30 p.m.

In the first, it looks like the BMW went off track to pass the Mustang on the right and then the Mustang tracked right when the pavement opened up a bit, squeezing the car he didn't expect to be there.

Walk me through the second one, though.  In that one it seems like the 924 jinked right to pass the BMW forgetting that there was a Civic parked in the space he was trying to occupy.  I've got exactly zero laps of wheel-to-wheel experience, but watching about 5-10 minutes of the lead-up, it seems like the 924 needed a little more patience to let that little knot of traffic work itself out.  I got the impression that they were routinely trying to get 3 cars into enough space for 2 and it seems to my very untrained eye that adding a 4th wasn't going to help the situation.  But, again, zero experience so educate me.

Stefan
Stefan GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 1:39 p.m.

In reply to wae :

Nope you nailed it.  The first one was a driver not paying attention and instead of holding their line, they jinked right when they saw something move in their peripheral vision.  The BMW shouldn't have taken the chance at that point at the track, but I suspect they were trying to avoid having to lock up the brakes and spin their car and wrecking it.  Stuff happens fast on track and it can result in

The driver in the 924 is a decent shoe, but very impatient and has wrecked the car a few times now, he provides a good amount of the funds though plus helping fix it.  The Civic could have given him a bit more room, but ideally the 924 should have backed out and followed them through the chicane and tried again at a more opportune moment.  I'm going to suggest to the 924 team that they should invest in some driver training and coaching for that driver.

_
_ HalfDork
7/9/19 1:39 p.m.

 When online racers go racing for real...

_
_ HalfDork
7/9/19 1:40 p.m.

In reply to Stefan :

and maybe a lesson in “humans lives matter” instead of “win at all costs”  

 

Stefan
Stefan GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 1:41 p.m.
_ said:

 When online racers go racing for real...

Teh 924 team have been racing that car, in real life, for over 1000 hours.  They've won a national ChumpCar (now ChampCar) Championship with it.  That said, it only takes a moment of lack of focus to cause a major issue.

Stefan
Stefan GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 1:48 p.m.
_ said:

In reply to Stefan :

and maybe a lesson in “humans lives matter” instead of “win at all costs”  

 

Agreed.  The driver is getting some guff from the other people who follow the team on FB.  I'll wait a bit and try to provide some constructive input to see if he can understand what he's done and what he should do in the future.

Aside from the cost, I've not done any Cheap Endurance racing since the first few ChumpCar races, simply because I've got kids now and there are a few too many examples of poor driving to make me comfortable.

jstein77
jstein77 UberDork
7/9/19 1:52 p.m.

That last one was weird. From in the cars, it didn't look like either driver did anything particularly bad.  The Porsche looked like it was still following right behind the BMW and matching its path; I couldn't actually see any movement of the steering wheel.  From inside the Civic, I couldn't see anything obviously bad either.  That said, if you've been passed and the other car is ahead of you, it's your responsibility to avoid him.

_
_ HalfDork
7/9/19 1:56 p.m.

Agreed. I can’t help but notice that as the level of racing prestige increases, the happiness factor decreases. Seems like  after an autocross people really love that day. I don’t meet too many people after race days that are as elated as autox people though. 

Usually they are 1) pissed. 2) sad 3) terrified. 4) broke 5) concerned about getting faster, which leads back to 4). 

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
7/9/19 2:08 p.m.
_ said:

Agreed. I can’t help but notice that as the level of racing prestige increases, the happiness factor decreases. Seems like  after an autocross people really love that day. I don’t meet too many people after race days that are as elated as autox people though. 

Usually they are 1) pissed. 2) sad 3) terrified. 4) broke 5) concerned about getting faster, which leads back to 4). 

You're talking to the wrong people.... 

Funny, that 924/civic crash looks off no matter which way you look at it. He really didn't look like he was squeezing him in his video, but REALLY looked like he was squeezing in the civic's video. 

The bmw was just a moron. 

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 2:14 p.m.

In reply to wae :

The Mustang was on the edge of track limits to the right the whole time. He didn't drift right, the whole track is a right turn. He was doing the right thing, sticking to slow line so the faster cars could pass him. Of course he didn't expect the BMW to show up from the other side of the curbs in the grass and pit maneuver him!

adam525i
adam525i GRM+ Memberand Reader
7/9/19 2:17 p.m.

MAX SHOULD'VE LEFT ROOM FOR LECLERC!!

Sorry, wrong thread. Carry on

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 2:22 p.m.

Watching more of the Civic, that driver sucked. The line at PIR going down the front straight there is to hug the wall to the left and come out to the right to pass. He followed someone going to pit entrance on the right and then just stuck himself in front of everybody in the passing lane doing nothing, including not checking his mirrors. After he hits the 924 he keeps going at race pace on the racing line despite the car shaking to berking pieces, takes both hands off of the wheel multiple times, and ignores flags for multiple stations, before finally stopping.

I'm not saying the 924 driver doesn't have some blame, but the Civic guy needs a serious retraining.

NickD
NickD PowerDork
7/9/19 2:27 p.m.
Javelin said:

This just reinforces why Lucky Dog, Lemons, CART, etc just do not interest me from a safety and money perspective. This stuff happens way too often.

Yeah, I similarly really don't have interest in doing wheel-to-wheel because I don't trust other people. 

I am reminded of a conversation I had after crewing for a stage rally team with the codriver (normally a very competitive driver, he was just co-driving for the fun of it at this event) and he asked if I had had fun and found stage rally interesting. I did. Then he asked if I would ever consider getting involved as a competitor. I replied "Honestly? berkeley no. I know that any motorsports, there is a chance that your going to write the car off. But when you are doing 70-80mph down a single-lane dirt road through the trees, the odds are greater that you aren't coming back with a car than you are. And I can't afford that E36 M3. So, no thank you."

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/9/19 2:40 p.m.
jstein77 said:

That last one was weird. From in the cars, it didn't look like either driver did anything particularly bad.  The Porsche looked like it was still following right behind the BMW and matching its path; I couldn't actually see any movement of the steering wheel.  From inside the Civic, I couldn't see anything obviously bad either.  That said, if you've been passed and the other car is ahead of you, it's your responsibility to avoid him.

No, it's the responsibility of the passing car to get by safely. Even in entry-level HPDE you are taught to hold your line and it's the other driver's duty to get around safely. 

I'm talking even when you are in a point-by group. Take a normal line out of the corner and give the signal, don't let off the throttle, don't juke to the inside to let them by, stay on the racing line and them get around. 

 

Sorry if I misread your comment, but it sounded like you were suggesting that as the Porsche was trying to go by, the Civic should have just moved over. 

Stefan
Stefan GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 2:56 p.m.

Having done this, I can say that while it is disconcerting to think about the potential accidents, etc. it is SOOOOO much fun to do. 

Seriously.

When you get a good race going with a group of people who all respect each other, but will race hard, its awesome.  This is what happens most of the time.  I still remember racing head to head for my entire 2 hour stint in our Shelby CSX-T with the Taurus SHO team.  Plus another good battle with a friend's 944.  Things that I can close my eyes and replay in my head.

Amusingly, our car was also pitted by a Honda, just a bit further along and in the braking zone for the chicane.  So the results were much less tragic.

The accidents actually happen infrequently and the sanctioning bodies do penalize poor driving and will exclude drivers or teams if they are completely out to lunch.  Its like any other competitive sport, there is an element of personal responsibility and ethics at the individual and team level before it gets to the officials.  Race or compete with people long enough and you get to know which teams or drivers are worth racing with and which you want to steer clear of.

spacecadet
spacecadet GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/9/19 3:07 p.m.

I feel bad for the mustang and the BMW in the first video. 

Watching the civic video I was expecting a hole to appear and then a light contact with the 924 at speed... but no.... That 924 was going to get the car through that hole at any cost... 

Sonic
Sonic UltraDork
7/9/19 3:45 p.m.

I’m about 50 endurance races deep at this point with plenty of excellent finishes, and never ever involved in more than a little bump with anyone.  All you have to do is remember that it is a long race, and don’t take unnecessary chances.  Both the bmw and 924 drivers forgot that.  There’s no excuse for what the bmw did, just ease off, wait for the middle car and then get past the mustang on the left.  The Porsche could do the same, wait a few turns for this pack to unbunch a little and then go on with your race, no need for getting that tight unless you are directly racing someone for the win at the end of the day

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 4:05 p.m.

First one was pretty much entirely the maniac E36 driver's fault, but the Mustang driver should try to pay more attention too. I keep track of any cars that are close to me on track just in case they do any crazy bullE36 M3.

Second one, it looks like the 924 driver basically PITted himself on the front of the Civic. They all probably should've given each other more room, considering all the money and fame that WASN'T on the line.

jstein77
jstein77 UberDork
7/9/19 4:05 p.m.
z31maniac said:
Sorry if I misread your comment, but it sounded like you were suggesting that as the Porsche was trying to go by, the Civic should have just moved over. 

Not exactly what I said.  I agree that it is the overtaking driver's responsibility to pass safely, but once that driver is past, it becomes the trailing driver's task not to hit him, especially if the lead driver is not changing his line.

parker
parker Reader
7/9/19 5:22 p.m.
z31maniac said:
 

No, it's the responsibility of the passing car to get by safely. Even in entry-level HPDE you are taught to hold your line and it's the other driver's duty to get around safely. 

I'm talking even when you are in a point-by group. Take a normal line out of the corner and give the signal, don't let off the throttle, don't juke to the inside to let them by, stay on the racing line and them get around. 

 

 

In HPDE that's good except you have to breathe the throttle to let some cars by.  There were numerous times when I was in my Neon or Cobalt SS behind some much faster car (not driver, car) that crawled through the corners.  They would point me by while going full throttle down the straight.  No way am I going to get by if they don't breathe the throttle a bit.  Once by them I would disappear after a couple of corners.

This was point-to-pass DE events so I couldn't just go around in the corners.

 

Matthew Kennedy
Matthew Kennedy GRM+ Memberand Reader
7/9/19 5:29 p.m.

Here's a better view of the Porsche crash, from the same 240sx that was almost involved in the first crash!

 

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