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Toyman01
Toyman01 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 5:55 p.m.

In reply to Matthew Kennedy :

I still say that one is all on the P car. The Civic was easing away from him and still got tagged. Glad he was able to drive out of it. 

slowbird
slowbird Reader
7/9/19 6:32 p.m.

It seems to me like both the Civic and the Porsche drivers weren't doing a very good job of being aware of how much room they were (weren't) leaving each other.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 7:10 p.m.

In the slow mo you can see the Honda jerk left. Watch the trees in relation to the sides of the car.

That was clearly a Mexican stand off though. Both cars were having that spot and neither was going to back down for anything.

Tom1200
Tom1200 Dork
7/9/19 7:47 p.m.

I've watched all the Civic V 924 videos about 5 times and you can see from the in cars that the Civic driver steers ever so slightly left while at the same time the 924 move the wheel to the right. The 924 appears to steer slightly more to the right (about 15 degrees right versus the Civics 7 degrees left).  It's difficult to assign blame but my view from the on board is it's more on the 924 driver than the civic driver. It maybe as little as a 55/45 split or as much as 60/40.

I realize the 924 driver provides a big chunk of the funding but if they've had multiple crashes someone needs to sit them down and ask them what they're doing. I had this conversation with a friends I go dirt riding with, it gained little traction until one of them crashed yet again by virtue of being overly aggressive and spent a full year recovering from a brain injury. He has onto gotten back to about 85% of his former self. 

The one thing I will criticize both driver for is shuffle steering; it's generally a bad habit, the steering on both cars is more than fast enough to not have to be moving your hands around on the wheel.

As for the BMW driver unless they had some kind of mechanical issue I'd ban them from at least two races. 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
7/9/19 7:49 p.m.
Javelin said:

Watching more of the Civic, that driver sucked. The line at PIR going down the front straight there is to hug the wall to the left and come out to the right to pass. He followed someone going to pit entrance on the right and then just stuck himself in front of everybody in the passing lane doing nothing, including not checking his mirrors. After he hits the 924 he keeps going at race pace on the racing line despite the car shaking to berking pieces, takes both hands off of the wheel multiple times, and ignores flags for multiple stations, before finally stopping.

I'm not saying the 924 driver doesn't have some blame, but the Civic guy needs a serious retraining.

idk, that's weird, I had the exact opposite viewpoint - and I love 924s (and don't love Civics). I won't argue with you about lines since I don't know PIR, but regardless of whether he was on "the good line" or not, the civic seemed to stay on "his" line and as the leading car that's his right. He doesn't have to make way for the 924, and frankly I was pretty surprised when I saw the 924 making that move with almost no room to spare. Only way he makes it clean through there is if all three cars hold their lines perfectly, which - let's face it - rarely happens at this level of racing. 924 should have known better, and as the passing car, it's on him, in my book. The Civic driver did some other questionable stuff in the video, but at that particular moment he didn't appear to me to be doing anything wrong.  But, we all have opinions. 

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/9/19 8:17 p.m.

Watch the white line.  The civic is actually moving to the right the entire straight. The Porsche just keeps moving over further and further.

 

This seems like target fixation to me by the Porsche.  He was gonna pass those cars in front and he was already past the civic (in his mind)....

 

Either way, I tell all my drivers, you can be right and still have a wrecked car, or you can be aware and patient and finish the race...

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
7/9/19 8:31 p.m.
wvumtnbkr said:

Watch the white line.  The civic is actually moving to the right the entire straight. The Porsche just keeps moving over further and further.

 

This seems like target fixation to me by the Porsche.  He was gonna pass those cars in front and he was already past the civic (in his mind)....

 

Either way, I tell all my drivers, you can be right and still have a wrecked car, or you can be aware and patient and finish the race...

yep, plus with a right-hand turn coming up the natural line for the Civic would be to hold the position relative to the BMW on the left, not try to move even MORE right where his corner entry speed would have to be really slow. I've done a few dozen hours in Chump races, and there's zero chance i try to split two cars with that little margin. These aren't F1 cars that can perfectly hold a line braking/entering a turn. Can't expect a crapcan racer to be that precise. 

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
7/9/19 8:47 p.m.

This seems like target fixation to me by the Porsche.  He was gonna pass those cars in front and he was already past the civic (in his mind)....

That's what it looked like to me. I don't see any part of this particular incident that lands on the civic driver. My .02. 

cdeforrest
cdeforrest Reader
7/9/19 9:01 p.m.

Porsche saw an inch and took a mile. Way too much agro, at least it didn’t total the Honda too. 

Error404
Error404 New Reader
7/9/19 9:32 p.m.

That BMW driver is a maniac, going off track on the inside to pass a car mid-turn. Why would you think that would be worth doing?

The Porsche driver should not have tried to split those two cars. There was not nearly enough "what if" space for that to be a good decision.

The Civic driver could use some coaching on hand placement and focus.

The Nissan driver seems to be an alright guy, from what I've seen.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/9/19 9:57 p.m.
irish44j said:
Javelin said:

Watching more of the Civic, that driver sucked. The line at PIR going down the front straight there is to hug the wall to the left and come out to the right to pass. He followed someone going to pit entrance on the right and then just stuck himself in front of everybody in the passing lane doing nothing, including not checking his mirrors. After he hits the 924 he keeps going at race pace on the racing line despite the car shaking to berking pieces, takes both hands off of the wheel multiple times, and ignores flags for multiple stations, before finally stopping.

I'm not saying the 924 driver doesn't have some blame, but the Civic guy needs a serious retraining.

idk, that's weird, I had the exact opposite viewpoint - and I love 924s (and don't love Civics). I won't argue with you about lines since I don't know PIR, but regardless of whether he was on "the good line" or not, the civic seemed to stay on "his" line and as the leading car that's his right. He doesn't have to make way for the 924, and frankly I was pretty surprised when I saw the 924 making that move with almost no room to spare. Only way he makes it clean through there is if all three cars hold their lines perfectly, which - let's face it - rarely happens at this level of racing. 924 should have known better, and as the passing car, it's on him, in my book. The Civic driver did some other questionable stuff in the video, but at that particular moment he didn't appear to me to be doing anything wrong.  But, we all have opinions. 

My comments about the Civic driver were 95% about his behavior after the wreck. Regardless of who's fault it was for the incident, his actions after would result in some race bans in most other series', especially ignoring flagging. When a marshal tells you to stop, you berking STOP!

All that said, the 924 is clearly in the wrong for the wreck along with the Honda. Both were driving incorrectly for PIR and general racing etiquette and both steered into each other in a game of chicken. Both teams need to be having some big talks with the drivers along with Lucky Dog Racing League.

 

irish44j
irish44j MegaDork
7/9/19 10:04 p.m.
Javelin said:
irish44j said:
Javelin said:

Watching more of the Civic, that driver sucked. The line at PIR going down the front straight there is to hug the wall to the left and come out to the right to pass. He followed someone going to pit entrance on the right and then just stuck himself in front of everybody in the passing lane doing nothing, including not checking his mirrors. After he hits the 924 he keeps going at race pace on the racing line despite the car shaking to berking pieces, takes both hands off of the wheel multiple times, and ignores flags for multiple stations, before finally stopping.

I'm not saying the 924 driver doesn't have some blame, but the Civic guy needs a serious retraining.

idk, that's weird, I had the exact opposite viewpoint - and I love 924s (and don't love Civics). I won't argue with you about lines since I don't know PIR, but regardless of whether he was on "the good line" or not, the civic seemed to stay on "his" line and as the leading car that's his right. He doesn't have to make way for the 924, and frankly I was pretty surprised when I saw the 924 making that move with almost no room to spare. Only way he makes it clean through there is if all three cars hold their lines perfectly, which - let's face it - rarely happens at this level of racing. 924 should have known better, and as the passing car, it's on him, in my book. The Civic driver did some other questionable stuff in the video, but at that particular moment he didn't appear to me to be doing anything wrong.  But, we all have opinions. 

My comments about the Civic driver were 95% about his behavior after the wreck. Regardless of who's fault it was for the incident, his actions after would result in some race bans in most other series', especially ignoring flagging. When a marshal tells you to stop, you berking STOP!

Agree with you 100% on that point. I was only commenting on the wreck itself. 

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UberDork
7/9/19 11:45 p.m.

I've seen this happen too many times in ChUampcar. Driver in faster car has zero patience, attempts to make a questionable pass at in inopportune time and poof an accident. It's racing, E36 M3 happens, and you inherit the risk when you put your car on the track. Hard to say who is to blame in this incident but the attempted pass by the Porsche was less than advantageous given the amount of cars in the area and possibly by taking note of the jerkiness of the Civic, it could have been avoided. The driver of the Civic seemed ubernervous and tense when being passed. Sucks for all parties involved. 

 

Having a slower car in crapcanracing I can't stand when people in faster cars with no patience to pass try to force their way through situations just because they have horsepower. Case in point. This thunderbird powers by me at Sebring, cuts me off, slams on the brakes to go into turn one. I pass him back in the caroselbecause he's driving a Thunderbird and proceeds to love tap me on the approach to the bridge. It could have ended terribly and luckily life went on but still. 

 

 

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 12:45 a.m.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

I dunno that I would necessarily use that particular clip in your defense...

DirtyBird222
DirtyBird222 UberDork
7/10/19 1:10 a.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

I dunno that I would necessarily use that particular clip in your defense...

Why's that Bob? Is it because I look like someone stuck on the 405 trying to get to my kids tee-ball game? 

(And if you can't tell that I'm joking, I am...thought people could use a laugh in this post) 

nimblemotorsports
nimblemotorsports Reader
7/10/19 2:59 a.m.

Those were some really bad mistakes.   There is no hurry to pass people in this kind of racing.

wvumtnbkr
wvumtnbkr GRM+ Memberand UberDork
7/10/19 5:54 a.m.
DirtyBird222 said:

I've seen this happen too many times in ChUampcar. Driver in faster car has zero patience, attempts to make a questionable pass at in inopportune time and poof an accident. It's racing, E36 M3 happens, and you inherit the risk when you put your car on the track. Hard to say who is to blame in this incident but the attempted pass by the Porsche was less than advantageous given the amount of cars in the area and possibly by taking note of the jerkiness of the Civic, it could have been avoided. The driver of the Civic seemed ubernervous and tense when being passed. Sucks for all parties involved. 

 

Having a slower car in crapcanracing I can't stand when people in faster cars with no patience to pass try to force their way through situations just because they have horsepower. Case in point. This thunderbird powers by me at Sebring, cuts me off, slams on the brakes to go into turn one. I pass him back in the caroselbecause he's driving a Thunderbird and proceeds to love tap me on the approach to the bridge. It could have ended terribly and luckily life went on but still. 

 

 

I don't see that the thunderbird did anything wrong except for blowing that 1 line.  Also, iirc, that car was in the lead at the time.

docwyte
docwyte UltraDork
7/10/19 8:31 a.m.

924 was fully at fault there.  He tried to bulldoze his way thru, expecting the Civic to slam on the brakes or jink over to make room for him.

The Civic driver doesn't have to do that, its racing, not an HPDE where room has to be given.  There wasn't space for the 924 to pass, he tried to make it happen and shouldn't have.  If I was on that team and that driver had wrecked the car several times I think I'd kick him off the team.

Doesn't matter he helps pay to fix the car, everytime he wrecks he ruins the weekend for the entire team.

aircooled
aircooled MegaDork
7/10/19 10:14 a.m.

Looks like the 924 was the primary cause.  Might be they both hit a bump at the wrong time causing them to swerve into each other?

Although the Civic may have had no requirement to give room, he HAD to know the 924 was basically sliding down his drivers door as he tried to go past and seemed to have plenty of room to move right.

E.g. the 924 was the primary cause, but they booth were being too aggressive.

Regarding the Dunderbird:  You really don't see any issue in that pass in T1?  He doesn't just out brake the car, he gets ahead of him, then brakes and swerves in front of the car.  I am not sure if that is legal, but it seems like a really bad idea and potentially unsafe.  The driver returned the favor by cutting inside on the chicane, a bit aggressive, but a not entirely unreasonable way to make his point (and seemingly far less dangerous then the Dunderbirds move).

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 11:11 a.m.

In reply to aircooled :

More like the poster taking his hands off the wheel multiple times to flip the T-Bird off. Not exactly good track driving practice there...

bcp2011
bcp2011 Reader
7/10/19 11:55 a.m.

In reply to DirtyBird222 :

You seem to be frustrated before he passed you.. why?  Seems like he's the faster car, so why not let him by so you can both go on your merry way?  Impeding his progress just increases risk for both of you to be taken out, even if he is an ass.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
7/10/19 3:38 p.m.
Javelin said:

In reply to aircooled :

More like the poster taking his hands off the wheel multiple times to flip the T-Bird off. Not exactly good track driving practice there...

lol - wat? One hand off a wheel is hardly the issue here. Both hands? Sure. Do you shift with both hands on the wheel? Point by? 

Both passes are fine to me - are you racing or driving an HPDE? The reaction/implication is the weird thing. 

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 3:57 p.m.
accordionfolder said:
Javelin said:

In reply to aircooled :

More like the poster taking his hands off the wheel multiple times to flip the T-Bird off. Not exactly good track driving practice there...

lol - wat? One hand off a wheel is hardly the issue here. Both hands? Sure. Do you shift with both hands on the wheel? Point by? 

Both passes are fine to me - are you racing or driving an HPDE? The reaction/implication is the weird thing. 

At 10.5 seconds you can clearly see both hands come off of the wheel to make the hands-up WTF? gesture at the other driver for more than a full second.

And both times he flips the other driver off he has his right arm completely past the net and is clearly not concentrating on controlling his car or being aware of his surroundings.

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
7/10/19 4:15 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

*edit I can see his left hand going up, now that i've watched it like ... 20 times, lol.

Both times he flicks off the car his hands are within the bounds of the net - I'm not sure what you're getting at there either? What do you think would happen in a big crash - his arms would stay perfectly still? 

I DO agree he's probably not focusing like he should, that's still my main concern, why are you so hot under the collar for a pass?
 

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 4:38 p.m.
Stefan said:

And a different situation, but at the same track, involving my buddies in their Audi 20VT powered Porsche 924 Turbo:

and the view from the Civic:

 

At 12:44 you can see a mirror full of 924 in the Civic driver's side mirror. The Civic is behind the blue E36 on the right, and clearly chops over into the 924 drifting left in the final right hand corner, corroborated by the 924's POV video. So that's what starts the 924 driver's red mist at the Civic.At 12:56 the Civic is behind the SeaFoam E36 and has a mirror full of 924 again. The 924 is variously in the mirrors and/or side-by-side all the way until 13:02, as the Civic driver bobbed around like mad while driving with one hand. T 13:02 the 924 re-appears ahead of the Civic and the Civic driver clearly steers left, ostensibly towards the back of the white E30? By 13:04 we can see the Civic driver finally having both hands on the wheel, which is now almost 90 degrees to the left and the cars contact. Once contact happens, the wheel rips almost 135 degrees to the right and the Civic driver removes his right hand again! 

The hand comes back and by some see-sawing miracle it's 13:06 and the Civic is still headed straight and with both hands back at the wheel. This is pure luck as the driver let go of the wheel multiple times. By 13:07 our intrepid friend his giving the first flag stand a WTF? hand as he's being flagged. He doesn't even look at the flag stand at 13:14 as he's too busy driving at full speed on the racing line in a car violently shaking to pieces. At 13:24 we have a double-handed WTF at flag stand #3 still trying to stop him, looks like maybe a black flag? At 13:36-13:38 we have VERY clearly a waving RED flag now and at 13:47 we finally stop in view of the FIFTH flag stand (that can be seen in the video anyway, I feel like there's one more after the chicane that we couldn't see). It takes 40 seconds and 5-6 marshals to stop this lunatic.It doesn't matter what the 924 driver did wrong, the Civic guy should be disciplined up to possibly a perma-ban. Purposefully turning into another racer? Ignoring marshals? I mean, come on! 

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