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Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 5:23 p.m.
Stefan said:

 

 

I also analyzed this one. The Civic first gets past the 924 at 1:29. The driver then spends 15 minutes (10 laps?) following him, shuffle steering, and blowing the line through T7 every single lap. This is important because more than once he was up on the Civic, blows T7, and the Civic just disappears down the back straight. The Civic drives about normal for this series it looks like (which is *bad*, nearly every car is a disaster at some point, a red and blue Miata goes off onto the grass and just comes right back on the racing line, a 200SX nearly chops the nose of the 924 off moving before/without looking, and people bob and weave like it's the last lap of the Monaco Grand Prix).

At 1:44:07 the 924 is passing the Civic, which can be seen in the back-up camera, and is passing the white E30, when you hear an audible "bang". Then the spin starts. This lines up with the video of the Civic driver turning into the 924. Then the 924 crashes. Hmmm.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 5:34 p.m.
Matthew Kennedy said:

Here's a better view of the Porsche crash, from the same 240sx that was almost involved in the first crash!

 

At 0:27 the Civic's left side is parallel with the tree above it. There is a straight vertical line from the side of the tree through the side of the rear bumper of the Honda. That is as far to the right as the Honda moves (and it was moving right all straightaway long). By the end of 0:28, the Honda has moved back to the left so that the tree is now parallel to the roof instead. The Honda continues moving left so that the trees are now in the middle of the roof by 0:29 and then they touch. In the slow-mo part you can clearly see the Honda juke left at 0:51.

Yeah, I gotta walk back and say that this is 100% on the Honda. His own video is the damning enough evidence. He can't claim that he never saw the 924 either, because you can see him look at his upper rear view twice at the 924 going down the front stretch. The Honda driver drives like a shiney happy person and takes it personal that the Porsche is trying to make pass after following him for 15 minutes, so he PIT's him on purpose. That's berked up.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 5:35 p.m.
Javelin said:
Stefan said:

And a different situation, but at the same track, involving my buddies in their Audi 20VT powered Porsche 924 Turbo:

and the view from the Civic:

 

At 12:44 you can see a mirror full of 924 in the Civic driver's side mirror. The Civic is behind the blue E36 on the right, and clearly chops over into the 924 drifting left in the final right hand corner, corroborated by the 924's POV video. So that's what starts the 924 driver's red mist at the Civic.At 12:56 the Civic is behind the SeaFoam E36 and has a mirror full of 924 again. The 924 is variously in the mirrors and/or side-by-side all the way until 13:02, as the Civic driver bobbed around like mad while driving with one hand. T 13:02 the 924 re-appears ahead of the Civic and the Civic driver clearly steers left, ostensibly towards the back of the white E30? By 13:04 we can see the Civic driver finally having both hands on the wheel, which is now almost 90 degrees to the left and the cars contact. Once contact happens, the wheel rips almost 135 degrees to the right and the Civic driver removes his right hand again! 

The hand comes back and by some see-sawing miracle it's 13:06 and the Civic is still headed straight and with both hands back at the wheel. This is pure luck as the driver let go of the wheel multiple times. By 13:07 our intrepid friend his giving the first flag stand a WTF? hand as he's being flagged. He doesn't even look at the flag stand at 13:14 as he's too busy driving at full speed on the racing line in a car violently shaking to pieces. At 13:24 we have a double-handed WTF at flag stand #3 still trying to stop him, looks like maybe a black flag? At 13:36-13:38 we have VERY clearly a waving RED flag now and at 13:47 we finally stop in view of the FIFTH flag stand (that can be seen in the video anyway, I feel like there's one more after the chicane that we couldn't see). It takes 40 seconds and 5-6 marshals to stop this lunatic.It doesn't matter what the 924 driver did wrong, the Civic guy should be disciplined up to possibly a perma-ban. Purposefully turning into another racer? Ignoring marshals? I mean, come on! 

 

TheRX7Project
TheRX7Project HalfDork
7/10/19 5:35 p.m.
_ said:

In reply to Stefan :

and maybe a lesson in “humans lives matter” instead of “win at all costs”  

 

That red mist tho

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
7/10/19 5:39 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

You're bored today? :)

Error404
Error404 New Reader
7/10/19 5:41 p.m.

Without watching the entire video, the 12:44 steering looks to me to like the Civic wanted to follow the green BMW around the purple one and hten all 3 BMWs light up brake lights. With a mirror full of 924 trying to box him inside and the rear bumper of the green BMW even with his front bumper, the Civic appears to be trying to stay away from contact with 3 different cars. I don't see the chopping on the part of the Civic, at least from the Civic footage. Starting at around 12:55 the the Civic driver stays behind the green BMW and seems to edge a hair right, if anything. The Civic stayed right coming out of the turn, looking like he wants to pas the white BMW and the green BMW tracks out left and comes right to pass. The 924 driver looks like he was impatient and decided to pass in between, not a smart idea. The problem is that the 924 is behind the white BMW and decides to force the issue. It looks like "almost 90 degrees to the left" is a reaction to the 924 swerving into the front of the car and pushing it right. There's a moment of contact where the 924 bounces off the Civic before coming back in and the Civic driver steers left before the wheel whips right.

Both drivers appear hot headed but the contact appears to be caused by poor decision making on the part of the 924 driver by trying to force his way between 2 cars unnecessarily. I think you had it when you said "red mist" on the part of the 924 driver, a bit of patience would have paid off well for him as he seems to have had the power to pass when traffic opened up more.

As for the after incident behavior of the Civic driver, I definitely agree that he needs some serious education time, at the least. Both hands off the wheel was stupid and he seems to be focusing more on venting verbally and physically than he does on maintainingg situational awareness. His lack of awareness could have easily lead to a follow on incident and was entirely unsafe.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/10/19 6:27 p.m.
accordionfolder said:

In reply to Javelin :

You're bored today? :)

I'm writing 3 final term papers for grad school and waiting to hear back from underwriting on my home loan. So yeah... I keep getting distracted...

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
7/10/19 6:30 p.m.

The right hand has to come off the wheel in order to move the shift lever.  Looks like he had both hands on when needed.

There is a simple rule in any wheel to wheel racing.   Passing.  It is up to the overtaking driver to make a safe pass

AnthonyGS
AnthonyGS GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
7/11/19 12:04 a.m.

So much awesomeness.....   I bet the Civic dude thought he was being flagged down so sponsors and team owners could fight for his services.  

 

Toebra
Toebra Dork
7/11/19 12:38 a.m.

That 924 should have never gone for that pass, not enough room.  Civic guy needs a vacation from the track to learn about flags.

 

The first video with that BMW was just ridiculous.  I would have beat that guy like a rented mule when we got out of the wrecked cars.

Jcamper
Jcamper Reader
7/11/19 12:39 a.m.
iceracer said:

The right hand has to come off the wheel in order to move the shift lever.  Looks like he had both hands on when needed.

There is a simple rule in any wheel to wheel racing.   Passing.  It is up to the overtaking driver to make a safe pass

This 100%. No question, overtaking driver has all the burden, and the less trust he has in the overtaken car the more cushion he should give them. 

He should also factor in that when you come alongside another car you initially get pushed away from each other and then you get sucked in closer. Even more dramatic when at high speed.

Jcamper

Toebra
Toebra Dork
7/11/19 12:48 a.m.

How many times has the guy in the 924 wadded up his car?  No way this was the first time.  Oh yeah, it did not look like the Civic guy steered into the Porsche, the more I watch that one, the more I wonder about the guy in the 924

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/11/19 12:51 a.m.
Jcamper said:
iceracer said:

The right hand has to come off the wheel in order to move the shift lever.  Looks like he had both hands on when needed.

There is a simple rule in any wheel to wheel racing.   Passing.  It is up to the overtaking driver to make a safe pass

This 100%. No question, overtaking driver has all the burden, and the less trust he has in the overtaken car the more cushion he should give them. 

He should also factor in that when you come alongside another car you initially get pushed away from each other and then you get sucked in closer. Even more dramatic when at high speed.

Jcamper

I agree with ALL of that.

 

However.

 

The Civic still *intentionally turned into the 924*.

 

It doesn't matter how bad the 924 driver screwed up (and he done screwed up plenty bad), NOBODY is expecting to get punted on purpose outside of a demolition derby.

 

Civic guy and E36 guy from the first incident both need serious time out and retraining before ever being allowed to so much as sniff a track again.

 

(And 924 guy needs a good refresher on safe passing, red mist, and patience).

jfryjfry
jfryjfry Dork
7/11/19 1:02 a.m.

It seems relevant that the civic hit the Porsche in the back half of his car.  

Whether the Porsche should or shouldn’t have gone for that hole, it sure looks like he was already technically past the civic when they hit. 

Error404
Error404 New Reader
7/11/19 1:09 a.m.
Jcamper said:
iceracer said:

The right hand has to come off the wheel in order to move the shift lever.  Looks like he had both hands on when needed.

There is a simple rule in any wheel to wheel racing.   Passing.  It is up to the overtaking driver to make a safe pass

This 100%. No question, overtaking driver has all the burden, and the less trust he has in the overtaken car the more cushion he should give them. 

He should also factor in that when you come alongside another car you initially get pushed away from each other and then you get sucked in closer. Even more dramatic when at high speed.

Jcamper

A representation of the Venturi effect, if I am not too mistaken. The closer the cars the faster the air moves and faster moving air creates low pressure which pulls them closer together and air moves faster and the pressure drops further and so on until BAM!

Re: Civic turning into 924-

Watching the in car video from the Civic, when his wheel first really turns you can see that the 924 is already at an angle to the right. Seems like the Civic driver turned into the contact initiated by the 924 in order to not spin out himself. (Right at 13:03 in that video)

Toebra
Toebra Dork
7/11/19 10:54 a.m.

If he was in front of the Civic, there would not have been any contact.  He never completed the pass.

 

Civic did not turn his wheel until after he was hit.  He did not intentionally turn into the 924.  Look at the in car video, watch his hands.  

 

How many times has the 924 guy crashed, anyone know? 

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
7/11/19 11:11 a.m.

Seems most want to blame the Civic driver, for some reason.

As Toebra said, Civic DID not turn his wheel  until he was hit.  Oh, both hands on the wheel.

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/11/19 11:23 a.m.

In reply to iceracer :

Watch again and listen. No bang until after the Civic driver turns left. You can clearly see the car going left from the 240 video, too.

Again, it doesn't absolve the 924 driver, but the Civic guy definitely hit him.

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
7/11/19 12:27 p.m.
iceracer said:

Seems most want to blame the Civic driver, for some reason.

As Toebra said, Civic DID not turn his wheel  until he was hit.  Oh, both hands on the wheel.

It seems most understand it's the job of passing driver to do so safely. There only seem to be a few people arguing otherwise.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
7/11/19 12:52 p.m.

This thread is amazing (roll eyes)

accordionfolder
accordionfolder Dork
7/11/19 1:05 p.m.

In reply to SVreX :

It's definitely ... Something. 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
7/11/19 2:48 p.m.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
7/11/19 3:01 p.m.

Drive thru penalty for improper use of horn.

 

Yes the burden is on the over-taker.

Patience is a necessity if you wish to finish. You have to set them up and go around them, not through them.

iceracer
iceracer UltimaDork
7/11/19 6:01 p.m.

In reply to Javelin :

You need to watch without prejudice.

 The Civic guy never turned the wheel until the 924 passed in front of him following the collision.   Yes he hit him.  After the 924 spun .

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/11/19 6:37 p.m.

In reply to iceracer :

What prejudice? I said the 924 driver was wrong to pass. I said he let the red most get to him. I called him out for shuffle steering and other faults. I said he should not have ever attempted the pass. I said that he was at fault. So, uh, what is prejudiced about it? 

I watched all three videos and it looks to me that the Civic hit the 924 (who was still in the wrong). Unless you can frame by frame it and show counter to the timestamps I already gave? Seriously, if you have better screenshots or something, I'm happy to look at them and will walk back my analysis. 

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