Asking for a friend, clearly, because I'm only interested in proper grown up track cars these days.
If said friend were to look at an MSM (and yes, I suspect said friend would also fit the FM little enchilada) that had between 100k-140k on the clock but is supposedly stock, is there anything to worry about other than the standard Miata stuff?
I don't own one but I did race one in SM that had near 200K miles on it. It was a 1.6L and this was back in 2003. Other than the clutch which gave up, the car ran fine. Not as fast as a lower mile one but the engine was just a bit tired and to be expected. It was a FL car if I remember.
Try to get a southern car it you can or inspect it very carefully if it's a northern one.
The MSM specifically - the one thing I'd wonder about would be turbo lifespan. They also showed more fuel pump problems than normal Miatas in the early days, and there's a boost sensor on the EGR system that gets cranky. Mechanically they're basically just Miatas and actually have uprated halfshafts, so I wouldn't expect much non-typical wear otherwise.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Thanks, that is good to know. Turbo lifespan was one of the things I was wondering about, although I do suspect I know where I could find an uprated turbo if it proves necessary 
. And yes, I was specifically wondering about the MSM-specific bits as I, err, my friend has probably owned a couple of Miatas too many and should know where to look for rust and damage.
In reply to jimbbski :
Just to clarify, I'm specifically talking about the factory turbo NB from 04/05. My "friend" is otherwise fairly familiar with NA chassis Miatas and I know a lot carries over to the NB.
I don't know about the turbo life exactly, but it is a potential surprise. We never had any trouble selling the turbochargers that came off cars at FM. You may be able to find a take-off from a car that's gone to a Garrett, or you could get it uprated. We had good results with uprated turbos other than some DOA units that took shaft damage during the rebuild.
Has your friend considered how they've fit in miatas and why they always sell them? Just asking for a friend, lol
In reply to docwyte :
Yes, and my friend is thinking he's an idiot and should go back looking a/for turbo Porsches instead. Nonetheless he appears to have an unhealthy affinity to Mazdas, especially Miatas and RX7s.
Keith Tanner said:The MSM specifically - the one thing I'd wonder about would be turbo lifespan. They also showed more fuel pump problems than normal Miatas in the early days, and there's a boost sensor on the EGR system that gets cranky. Mechanically they're basically just Miatas and actually have uprated halfshafts, so I wouldn't expect much non-typical wear otherwise.
I always "heard" they had a stronger transmission too. Just stuff people made up?
z31maniac said:Keith Tanner said:The MSM specifically - the one thing I'd wonder about would be turbo lifespan. They also showed more fuel pump problems than normal Miatas in the early days, and there's a boost sensor on the EGR system that gets cranky. Mechanically they're basically just Miatas and actually have uprated halfshafts, so I wouldn't expect much non-typical wear otherwise.
I always "heard" they had a stronger transmission too. Just stuff people made up?
Just the poorly matched 6-speed that was carried over into the later cars. They actually do better with a 5-speed swapped in. I don't think there was a significant difference in strength in the drivetrain other than the larger halfshafts.
In reply to BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) :
Your friend either needs to suck it up and build an Excocet to solve the fit problem or build one berkeleying Miata with dropped floors, etc. and then actually drive the berkeleyer.
Honestly, they are great for a lot of people, but your friend just doesn't fit them well and should look at larger sportscars they actually fit in. I know Corvettes aren't well-reguarded by some, but the C5 and later are quite quick and handle quite well with better fitment for many.
There's also the S2000, which may fit some better than the Miata. I know of a pristine one available in the PNW that is stock, unmodded and well maintained (See for sale post here).
More accurately - they had the standard 6-speed, but starting in 2004 it was paired with a 4.1 rear end instead of the 3.9 used from 1999-03. Most people think this is MSM only but all 2004-05 6-speed Miatas got that 4.1.
Note that I'm referring to the North American market, gearing choices were different overseas.
What does "your friend" think about a 2.5 swapped NC? A bit larger car with more shove and headroom to FI if desired?
Well if it does become a money pit your friend can name it The M$M
The MSM transmission has shot-peened gears.
Swapping in a 3.9 or 3.6 rear end is supposed to make the car far better to drive, because it then gives you five useable gears and a highway overdrive.
I have a 2004 MSM. It has about 150,000 miles. I am the 3rd "adult" owner so its never been modified or wrecked.
I switched the 17" Racing Hart wheels to 15 x 8" based upon advice from Keith Tanner when I first bought it. This was an excellent upgrade - lighter wheels, better handling and a better ride. The 4.1 rear end gear is kind of too low, torsen is appreciated. 1st gear is useless basically and its over 4000 rpm in 6 gear at 80.
It looks like the turbo seals are leaking a little. An oil film in the downstream piping. This is repairable, seal kits are available, though removing the turbo is a major pain because of the way its attached. I'm told its better to just remove the entire exhaust manifold first and then deal with the turbo.
Little parts like sensors are breaking. My worry is there are some parts that were unique to the MSM that Mazda will no longer supply.
For example I am chasing down a P2006 code, meaning the manifold butterfly valves are stuck open or closed. This is the VTCS system. The car bogged way more than the usual MSM bog and the CEL came on. That was the code I got on my reader.
Its either leaky vacuum hoses, a bad sensor or the actuator for rotating the butterfly valves shaft. If its the actuator I am hosed because it a discontinued part. I changed the sensor and am getting ready to change all the vacuum hoses. Same for the actuator for the turbo relief gate. Discontinued.
Also I am changing the 4 small water hoses that go through the throttle body and oil cooler while I'm doing this. Also changing the "O" ring in the oil cooler while I'm there anyway. This requires removing the manifold brace and the alternator for access to the connections. Also I have a valve cover gasket leak, (I hope that is all it is). This is the weekend coming up I do all the work since the wife and kids took off on vacation.
Look at the radiator. If its shows any sign of yellowing, browning, or cracking its time for a change. The stock one is really good. Many aftermarket radiators do not provide enough cooling though I believe FM's cross flow is one of the good ones for the MSM.
When I had to change out the turbo's water supply hose I found the same problem, part no longer available. After lots of research I found that the hose for a CX-7 turbo would fit with minor cutting of length.
It seems like a lot of the MSM guys on the Miata forum don't know much about cars and ask beginner questions so its hard to find out workarounds for discontinued parts with out a lot of research. I've gotten better advice here from Keith and others. Its appreciated.
jharry3 said:
It seems like a lot of the MSM guys on the Miata forum don't know much about cars and ask beginner questions so its hard to find out workarounds for discontinued parts with out a lot of research. I've gotten better advice here from Keith and others. Its appreciated.
Most of us original owner MSM owners, who bought these cars new, were all on the mazdaspeed forum. At that time, Gary didn't even have the MSM section on miata.net ;)
In reply to jharry3 :
Given how annoyed "my friend" got when it came to backordered parts on his S2000, the amount of NLA in your post is not being looked upon fondly.
Thanks for sharing that, that's exactly the kind of info I was after.
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to jharry3 :
Given how annoyed "my friend" got when it came to backordered parts on his S2000, the amount of NLA in your post is not being looked upon fondly.
Thanks for sharing that, that's exactly the kind of info I was after.
If you don't live in a place that requires a fully operational original emissions system you have a lot more options to go around the NLA parts. I live in Houston and they plug in once a year scanning the original computer - which has to match up with the VIN of the car.
On the MSM the parts it looks like they are discontinuing are turbo control related. Everything else is basic Miata interchangeable so far as I can tell. And the MSM doesn't have the variable valve timing system on the engine.
In reply to BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) :
I fully support your friend getting a 996 Turbo. I think he'd really like them. I also think your friend should get over his dislike of BMW's and just buy a nice E46 M3.
BenB (Forum Supporter) said:The MSM transmission has shot-peened gears.
Swapping in a 3.9 or 3.6 rear end is supposed to make the car far better to drive, because it then gives you five useable gears and a highway overdrive.
I have heard that rumor for years but never from a reputable source. Unfortunately, the parts fiches no longer show internal gears for the 2004-05 6-speeds so I can't confirm.
The 3.9 rear is the gearing that was used with the 6-speed before 2004, it's a decent setup. The overdrive isn't really any higher than the 5 speed but it's better. IIRC the MSM combines the lowest redline and the shortest gearing of any stock NA or NB.
The VTCS actuator should be found on any 2001-05 Miata. The MSM radiator is actually considerably more efficient than a non-MSM radiator and is better than a lot of aftermarket units.
When the MSM came out, it attracted a very different customer than other Miatas. The owners were generally far less mechanically inclined and educated about their car than a non-MSM with a turbo kit - which makes a certain amount of sense, because they just bought a car instead of having to select components and build it or have it built. But it took a while for that to change. There was a running joke at FM that the worst possible Miata owner to support was an MSM owned by a Canadian engineer :)
docwyte said:In reply to BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) :
I fully support your friend getting a 996 Turbo. I think he'd really like them. I also think your friend should get over his dislike of BMW's and just buy a nice E46 M3.
Unfortunately my friend's budget requires him to deduct 52 from that number and stick to 944 turbos if it has to have a Porsche crest and a turbo.
He'll also make an exception for a BMW Clown Shoe.
Keith Tanner said:When the MSM came out, it attracted a very different customer than other Miatas. The owners were generally far less mechanically inclined and educated about their car than a non-MSM with a turbo kit - which makes a certain amount of sense, because they just bought a car instead of having to select components and build it or have it built. But it took a while for that to change. There was a running joke at FM that the worst possible Miata owner to support was an MSM owned by a Canadian engineer :)
Ha, this is how 3rd and 4th gen F-body people look at 5th and 6th gen owners. Just like with the MSM it will take a while for that to change but I'm sure it will.
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:docwyte said:In reply to BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) :
I fully support your friend getting a 996 Turbo. I think he'd really like them. I also think your friend should get over his dislike of BMW's and just buy a nice E46 M3.
Unfortunately my friend's budget requires him to deduct 52 from that number and stick to 944 turbos if it has to have a Porsche crest and a turbo.
It's actually only a 45 deduction if it's a Turbo 
If you research old road tests of the MSM from 2004/2005 they all mention the shot peened/hardened gears in the 6 speed.
I got the impression it was mentioned in the Mazda press release.
The old articles usually mention that the 4.1 axle ratio was selected by Mazda to help the 0-60 and 1/4 mile numbers in road tests.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/first-drives/reviews/a10233/2004-mazdaspeed-mx-5-miata/
This is out of the MAZDA publication " 2004 Mazdaspeed MX-4 Service Highlights" It mentions "shot peening" of the gears in the 6 speed.
You'll need to log in to post.
