I have seen the future (GM) and it is brilliant.

In reply to PHeller:

I think Ram has already been testing a half-ton diesel, which is probably sourced from overseas.

I can only go by what I have driven. So far I have not driven anything from the "new" GM.. but I still like my mom's Redezvous. My only gripe with it are the buttons on the controls that are slowly losing their markings from wear and tear..

Other than that.. I do not "hate" GM any more than I hate Honda, MB, or Chrysler.. but I do hate their fanbois

Zomby Woof wrote:

93EXCivic wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: I want a comparison to a new, turbo, manual equipped sedan, that has a similar pricetag (within $4k sticker).

Focus ST? Mazdaspeed 3? Dodge Dart?

I have a friend who is a Chrysler dealer tech. I would stay away from the Dart for a while if I were you.

Why?

93EXCivic wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: I want a comparison to a new, turbo, manual equipped sedan, that has a similar pricetag (within $4k sticker).

Focus ST? Mazdaspeed 3? Dodge Dart?

Cool, thanks. Gonna try to price them all out on the web and see what I come up with. To be honest though, I prefer the looks of the cruze over the ford and mazda. The Dart looks good. Where is a good place to get interior space data on these?

http://www.ford.com/cars/focus/specifications/interior/

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/displayPage.action?pageParameter=modelsSpecs&vehicleCode=MS3

Dodge's site is less than helpful http://www.dodge.com/en/2013/dart/interior/

Cruze Eco - with Fog lights, and alloys, 6 spd manual, and sound package - $21,400
Mazdaspeed 3 - lights and wheels are included, manual trans, no stereo or other upgrades - $24,995
Focus ST - Fog lights and Alloys included, cant get premium stereo without another $2k+ in other upgrades, manual trans, not other upgrades - $24,495
Dart - Website build section isnt functional at this time.

Having spent some time at each website, It looks like the Mazda may be the only competitor in terms of interior space, and thats because its a hatch. I love the look of a hatch over a sedan, but the Cruze gets better economy. The ford and the dodge both look much smaller, but that may be just perspective. For certain, I will likely drive all 4 for comparison purposes.

I still dont see anything that changes my mind, but Im willing to be open minded. If I have the cash though, the Regal GS really has zero competition when comparing cars with the same criteria - 4 doors, manual, turbo, similar price tag (~$35k IIRC).

Doesn't accordionfolder have a new Cruze with a manual? I seem to remember him posting about it and he liked it. It was black and looked damn good.

4cylndrfury wrote: I really do plan to vote with my wallet. To the haters, try to talk me out of: 1. If I can afford it (and Im really going to try), my first option is as inexpensive a Regal GS as can be afforded with 3 pedals (probably will have to forgo the bigger wheels and brembos). 2. More likely, Cruze Eco with the RS wheels (I know they will be extra). Honestly, please point me towards a turbo sedan with an available manual from another mfr that would end up being a better car for the dollar. Chances are, you wont be able to. Just a theory, though I havent really tried to comparison shop much. No, I dont want you to tell me how much 'stang I can get for that money, or what similar used car might be cheaper. I want a comparison to a new, turbo, manual equipped sedan, that has a similar pricetag (within $4k sticker).

the Cruze Eco may be a turbo, but it has power like any other modern fuel efficient N/A 4 cylinder engine from half a dozen other companies.

4cylndrfury wrote: If I have the cash though, the Regal GS really has zero competition when comparing cars with the same criteria - 4 doors, manual, turbo, similar price tag (~$35k IIRC).

kinda the same deal as what i said about the cruze eco. only in this case, you can broaden your search by comparing it to V6 engines that are equally efficient and powerful.

93EXCivic wrote: Why?

My buddy tells me they're really complicated, not particularly well built, and they don't have what they need to repair them yet. At least one has been in the shop pretty much since day one, and is going to be bought back.

BMW 328i sedan starts at $36k. I'd call that a direct competitor to the Regal GS. Four doors, turbo, manual.

http://www.bmwusa.com/standard/content/vehicles/2013/3/328isedan/default.aspx

Orrrr Cadillac ATS. Starts at $33.5, manual, turbo, sedan.

http://www.cadillac.com/ats-luxury-sport-sedan.html

Looks damn good too.

Zomby Woof wrote:

93EXCivic wrote: Why?

My buddy tells me they're really complicated, not particularly well built, and they don't have what they need to repair them yet. At least one has been in the shop pretty much since day one, and is going to be bought back.

Is that with the new Tigershark motor or with 1.4T? The 1.4T has been out for a while and the chassis is from an Alfa. But lots of cars have first year problems so it doesn't surprise me too much.

i would have at least considered the cruze eco if it had been available as a hatch/wagon.

if such a car existed it would compare closer in power and efficiency with the skyactiv than any turbo vehicle.

4cylndrfury wrote: Honestly, please point me towards a turbo sedan with an available manual from another mfr that would end up being a better car for the dollar.

That is a good (and interesting) question. It looks like you are looking at Compact to Midsize (so no Sub-Compacts like the Sonic or Fiesta, or Golf Carts like the Spark) and around $30K (Regal) but more like $20K (Cruze).

Here's what I've got:

• 2013 Buick Regal Turbo (Premium I) is $31520 with zero options and the MT6. There's a price bump for 2013, and honestly you'd probably hate that you didn't spend the extra $3K for a GS every time you drive it. The Verano isn't offered in Turbo or MT yet.
• 2013 Chevy Cruze 1LT is $20045 with the MT6, Turbo, and RS package. You do not want the Eco. My neighbor bought one new and get the same mileage out of the regular one that he gets loaned when his Eco is in for service (which has been a lot, but due to miles). Malibu isn't offered with the Turbo or MT.
• 2013 Dodge Dart Rallye is $21385 with the MultiAir Turbo/MT6 and the Popular Equipment Group. Plus you can get it in Lime with a matching interior! I've heard nothing but good things about these and will be test driving one soon (SWMBO needs a newer car).
• Ford only lets you get a Turbo Focus with the $23K+, hatchback-only ST. The 2013 Fusion SE can be equipped with the 1.6L EcoBoost with the MT6 for $25290. If you go with the SE Appearance Pack from the get-go it's only $25745 for the same drivetrain.
• 2013 Veloster Turbo is $22725, but comes in funky 3 (4?) door hatch-thing only. Doesn't look like you could get that drivetrain in the Elantra, which is a shame. Sonata 2.0T is AT only. (KIA doesn't have the Turbo + MT in any of their cars)
• Mazda only has a Turbo in the hatchback only Mazdaspeed3 for $24795.
• Nissan weirdly has a small turbo (in the Juke) but never puts it in a car or with an MT.
• Subaru only has the WRX, based on the last-gen's platform, at $25795. The new-gen Impreza is so far, NA only.
• Suzuki doesn't offer the turbo SX4 anymore and it looks like no boost for the Kizashi, either.
• VW has the Jetta GLI 2.0T 6MT at $24740.

Honda, Toyota, and the others have jack nada. I'd go with the Dart Rallye or Cruze RS, personally.

4cylndrfury wrote: Dart - Website build section isnt functional at this time.

It most certainly is! Right on Dodge.com I just now built about four different versions.

4cylndrfury wrote: If I have the cash though, the Regal GS really has zero competition when comparing cars with the same criteria - 4 doors, manual, turbo, similar price tag (~$35k IIRC).

$35865, and if you have that coin, there's actually a lot of options. Audi A4 2.0T, Cadillac ATS Turbo, Subaru WRX & STi, Mitsubishi Lancer EVO, and the BMW 328i all spring to mind...

why require turbo yet specifically choose cars that it doesn't outperform it's naturally aspirated competition?

Javelin wrote: * Nissan weirdly has a small turbo (in the Juke) but never puts it in a car or with an MT.

except the MT juke

belteshazzar wrote:

Javelin wrote: * Nissan weirdly has a small turbo (in the Juke) but never puts it in a car or with an MT.

except the MT juke

Ah, you are correct. If you get the SV trim FWD Juke, you can have the Turbo + MT.

Javelin wrote:

belteshazzar wrote:

Javelin wrote: * Nissan weirdly has a small turbo (in the Juke) but never puts it in a car or with an MT.

except the MT juke

Ah, you are correct. If you get the SV trim FWD Juke, you can have the Turbo + MT.

But then you own a vehicle that makes the Aztec look like a Ferrari 250GT.

i like it

belteshazzar wrote: i like it

I liked the Aztec.

me too!

In reply to Bobzilla:

Huh? Who's saying anything about vehicle looks?