belteshazzar wrote: why require turbo yet specifically choose cars that it doesn't outperform it's naturally aspirated competition?
A- economy. B- I'm quite certain that the Turbo cars have been designed in such a way that once the warranty period expires, aftermarket tuning and hardware will wake it up and take it far beyond its n/a siblings.
failboat wrote: I, and everyone else that also got to ride in both, unanimously preferred the Taurus. Taurus was roomier, had nicer interior materials and was more comfortable, had nicer tech features, and cost about the same as the Buick.
The larger car has more room? I, for one, am shocked. 
I've spent some time in the new SHO. Good car that would be even better in a Smokey-esque 7/8-scale.
Zomby Woof wrote:bravenrace wrote: According to Edmunds: "Full Size Trucks The Ford F-150 has been a perennial best-selling vehicle in the U.S. for more than 30 yearsThe last time I compared 1/2 ton trucks (it was a few years ago), GM had consistently been outselling Ford. The reason I looked was because GM trucks drastically outnumber Fords around here, so I wondered how that was possible. Did Ford sell more F150's than Chev? Yes, more than GMC? Yes. More than GM, no.
Well then this year must suddenly be different, as at this point the F-150 is clearly outselling Chevy and GMC trucks combined. The F-150 also outsold the two GM trucks combined in 2010 by about 20k units, but not in 2011. BTW - The Super Duty usually far outsells the combined volume of the HD models from GM.
Javelin wrote:4cylndrfury wrote: If I have the cash though, the Regal GS really has zero competition when comparing cars with the same criteria - 4 doors, manual, turbo, similar price tag (~$35k IIRC).$35865, and if you have that coin, there's actually a lot of options. Audi A4 2.0T, Cadillac ATS Turbo, Subaru WRX & STi, Mitsubishi Lancer EVO, and the BMW 328i all spring to mind...
Douchecar...I mean Bimmer, and Audi are out - complicated maintenance nightmares. IMHO, and from personal experience, GM seems to have Europe beat where maintenance and build quality are concerned. I could be waaay wrong, I have no data, thats just what I seem to see and read, so Im totally opening the door for someone to shoot down that point if theres evidence to the contrary. The 328i sedan, with adaptive suspension, and stereo upgrade comes to $41,770. The A4 - I picked the 2.0t premium (which coincidentally is the cheapest trim level) with a manual 6 speed and Quattro. cant upgrade the stereo without sending the pricetag up into BMW territory. There was no option that I could see that upgraded the suspension. Price as I built it came in under the others at $34,295, but thats sacrificing everything I wanted in the GS.
STI and EVO would be great, except Im pretty sure the EVO likely wont be available anymore by the time Im in the market (lol for all I know the GS could be too, so perhaps this point is moot). STI, with pretty much the same options (stereo, foglights) came in around $35k. The thing I like about the subaru website is you can see all the goodies that the SPC group offers - bushings, short shifters, firmer mounts, exhaust etc etc...it was pretty cool, and could sway the vote a little. ATS Turbo would be great, plus rear or all wheel drive options are great, but in order to get the same suspension adjustability as the GS, the Caddy pricetag climbs to $44k.
So, for the money, the STI is the only car mentioned that meets the criteria and competes in performance options/dollar . Im game to consider the STi, but the lil lady will definitely want comfort, so the STi might have an uphill battle.
4cylndrfury wrote:belteshazzar wrote: why require turbo yet specifically choose cars that it doesn't outperform it's naturally aspirated competition?A- economy. B- I'm quite certain that the Turbo cars have been designed in such a way that once the warranty period expires, aftermarket tuning and hardware will wake it up and take it far beyond its n/a siblings.
i haven't seen a lot of evidence to support reason A.
reason B is a good one. moreso in the case of the Cruze than the Regal i think. i've no less than three friends with 5sp Eco Cruzes now, and am interested to see what they can squeeze out for power. once again, too bad they don't offer it as a hatch/wagon.
In reply to 4cylndrfury:
I have no dog in this fight, but you may want to look at the Audi A3 for comparison. It's at the end of it's design cycle and well sorted by now. Not particularly roomy, but you can get a FWD version with the manual, sport suspension & winter package for 30K. I have an '11 in that configuration and find it a pretty nice car.
Not to stir the pot, but one of your requirements is a turbo engine. Again, your reason B is valid if that's important to you, but just as a comparison consider this:
Buick GS (Turbo 4) HP= 270
Gas Mileage = 19/27
Acura TL (V6) HP= 280
Gas Mileage = 20/29
You may have no interest in the TL, but that's not my point. The TL will also be more reliable and better built than the GS if history holds true. I also know from personal experience that TL's can get better than their rated highway mileage - Mine easily got 31mpg. They are also offered with a 6 speed manual and all wheel drive. But my real point is that there are likely many other cars out there that can provide the same or better driving experience and efficiency than the GS, but do not have turbo 4 power. You seem pretty set on the GS, and that's great, I say if that's what you want, got for it. I'm glad Buick is making that car and would be interested in it myself if I was looking, but don't discount other cars that may suite your needs before checking them out. My own experience of late is that you'll have more reliability problems with a GM car than many others, but YMMV.
I wonder if the TL has similar handling characteristics? I like the push button sport mode that the GS offers. Like I said, Im willing to drive other vehicles in that price range and performance group.
Part of me also just plain old likes the looks of the GS over much of its competition (specifically the re-damn-dikyouluss beak thing Acura is currently hanging off the front of their cars). BMW, Audi, even the STi (which used to be one of my favorites aesthetically) all have fallen waaay off the style wagon in my opinion versus their offerings just 5 years ago.
4cylndrfury wrote:belteshazzar wrote: why require turbo yet specifically choose cars that it doesn't outperform it's naturally aspirated competition?A- economy. B- I'm quite certain that the Turbo cars have been designed in such a way that once the warranty period expires, aftermarket tuning and hardware will wake it up and take it far beyond its n/a siblings.
Generally GM will offer upgrade kits for their turbo cars that won't void the warranty. They did it with the Solstice/Sky, Cobalt/Ion, and HHR for sure.
In reply to Cotton:
Is the engine in the GS the same as in the Solstice GXP? From the specs it looks so to me, but I didn't dig in far enough to verify that.
In reply to 4cylndrfury:
The beak is getting better as they tone it down, and can look much better if painted body color (see below), but I agree. I think the previous TL was a much better looking car. But again, my point wasn't so much to direct you to the TL as it was to just point out that a V6 car can have the same performance and economy of a turbo, and in some cases may exceed it depending on driving style.
You may have already stated it, but have you driven the Regal? How's the torque steer? After years of driving FWD cars, I'm frankly sick of TS, so my next car will likely be RWD or AWD. I'm just curious about putting that kind of power through the front wheels, especially if you are planning on upgrading the power later. My TL wasn't the current generation, but under all but full throttle conditions, you couldn't even tell it was front drive. Acura did a great job of tuning out the TS, IMO.
bravenrace wrote: In reply to Cotton: Is the engine in the GS the same as in the Solstice GXP? From the specs it looks so to me, but I didn't dig in far enough to verify that.
Honestly not sure. I haven't looked much deeper into it either.
4cylndrfury wrote: I wonder if the TL has similar handling characteristics? I like the push button sport mode that the GS offers. Like I said, Im willing to drive other vehicles in that price range and performance group.
sounds like you'd keep the car long term. i don't mean to be a wet blanket, i'm sure the HiPer suspension is sweet, but any kind of adaptive suspension is a huge turnoff for me. the replacement costs are always exorbitant.
belteshazzar wrote: ...any kind of adaptive suspension is a huge turnoff for me. the replacement costs are always exorbitant.
Yeah, that has crossed my mind. Part of me has the honda mentality...by the time things are ready to be replaced, the aftermarket will have better options than oem for the same coin.
Thats relying on there being an aftermarket for this platform. SInce its Opel based, Im guessing there will be some in Europe, but then costs to get it will be as high as OEM. Your point does not fall on deaf ears.
In reply to 4cylndrfury:
Wait, you option up the BMW and then discount it for having a higher price tag?
DaveEstey wrote: In reply to 4cylndrfury: Wait, you option up the BMW and then discount it for having a higher price tag?
same options as what Im looking for in the GS...foglights are standard on the GS, upgraded suspension is standard in the GS, upgraded stereo is standard in the GS. Apples to apples as it were...
Bobzilla wrote: But then you own a vehicle that makes the Aztec look like a Ferrari 250GT.
Nice ninja edit to get rid of the snark comment about styling when it wasn't even in the conversation. Don't know which of my cars you are putting down now, but to be clear, I like the Juke (look up photos of them with the upper light delete kit), even though none of that has anything to do with the OP's thing.
Off to look up $35K turbo cars...
In reply to Javelin:
I think he was talking about the Juke, not one of your cars, no?
In reply to bravenrace:
No, you missed his deleted post where he ripped into me for calling the Juke weird because he mis-read the sentence I wrote. I am now congratulating him on the ninja edit/delete. That line quoted is probably about the Juke though, so now I've gone and mis-read something, too.
Well now, let's all hold hands, sing kumbaya once, and start over. 
4cylndrfury wrote:belteshazzar wrote: ...any kind of adaptive suspension is a huge turnoff for me. the replacement costs are always exorbitant.Yeah, that has crossed my mind. Part of me has the honda mentality...by the time things are ready to be replaced, the aftermarket will have better options than oem for the same coin. Thats relying on there being an aftermarket for this platform. SInce its Opel based, Im guessing there will be some in Europe, but then costs to get it will be as high as OEM. Your point does not fall on deaf ears.
get the cruze.
Javelin wrote: In reply to bravenrace: No, you missed his deleted post where he ripped into me for calling the Juke weird because he mis-read the sentence I wrote. I am now congratulating him on the ninja edit/delete. That line quoted *is* probably about the Juke though, so now I've gone and mis-read something, too. Well now, let's all hold hands, sing kumbaya once, and start over.
uMM... no, no ninja edit. That was the only post I made in here. I didn't rip into anyone. Thanks for playing!
In reply to Javelin:
You really want to start a debate about how Kumbaya is spelled???
I will say this... if I make a post ripping into someone for something, I don't delete it. Ever. Sorry about your luck. If I find out I'm wrong, which is very rare, I will apologize and leave it at that. But to delete something in a thread throws the whole thing into disarray and makes it hard to follow.
I don't like making things hard to follow.
In reply to Bobzilla:
Many apologies Bob, I could have sworn there was a complete post in there between mine at 5:27 and yours at 5:31 that's now gone, but if you don't delete things I believe you. Apparently I'm seeing things, so again, apologies.
no biggie. If I was goin to rip you, I'd do it! Don't you worry about that!
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