I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

tuna55 said:

2023BD said:

Some in the south may find a Bolt with rebates and discounts and no cold weather is better financially. 

 

The only thing true about this sentence for the two people on here who actually drive a Bolt and log the actual costs is the word "Bolt". I do live in the South, but plenty of cold weather, no rebate and no discount.

I didn't realize that SC had below zero weather weeks at a time. How do all those palm trees not burst?

wait, you are calling 34* "cold"? You southerners are so funny. 

In reply to tuna55 :

  ummm.  56 degrees for a daily avg temp in the winter is not cold, that is shorts weather. 

In reply to Opti :

You're right we got a long way to go on making these things work properly.  Those turbine blades are an absolute killer. I've seen a few ideas on how to grind them up and mix them in concrete as a binder. But nothing great yet. 

In reply to AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) :

So you can't demonstrate any improvement even though you know the engineers.  And Frenchy can't demonstrate how much of MN's power is actually renewable.  
 

Grid power factor is a direct measure of efficiency.  The grid needs large roaring machines spinning at constant speeds to be stable.  Guess what renewables don't do?  They don't spin big rotational electrical generating machines at a constant speed.  This is exactly why the people making mandates are in fact stupid.  The people that thinks this all just sorts itself out all cumbaaya are equally gullible.  
 

These problems are all easily solvable.  Sadly no one is actually interested or can even understand simple viable right now this minute solutions.  Enjoy the crisis of stupidity.  It'll be worse for your kids and their kids (and sadly my kids too) because you all keep putting faith in stupid leaders.  
 

Maybe when your kids are $50 trillion in debt, sitting in the dark with their EV stuck in their garage because the power is out, maybe then you'll start acting like serious people.  
 

Until then let's see how this spend it today, bill ya tomorrow, pop a pill culture thing works out.  I'm sure we are just one more mandate away from utopia.  

There are solutions out there, being built as I type this. I know because I've been involved with them and was on one of the job sites last week. Multiple BESS projects- Battery Energy Storage Systems- are currently under way in CA. Picture a Tesla Power Wall for the grid. These are being installed at various sub stations. Dozens of shipping container sized groups of batteries, hundreds of megawatts of battery power. The intent is to stabilize the grid due to renewable generation as well as provide emergency back up power. 

These are expensive. I'm positive BESS+renewables is much more expensive than traditional power generation, but it is a solution. And we are going to need a lot of it to keep up with demand if we are not going to build more power plants. 

CA utilities are also shifting billing parameters for solar. They will pretty much require battery storage at homes for solar to remain viable, and might even be needed to avoid higher bills without solar. All of those batteries connected to the grid will help- at a cost. 
 

There is also talk about using EV's themselves to help balance the grid when they are plugged in. I don't care for that idea- it would be like letting your neighbors siphon your gas tank when they are short on gas and leaving a few bucks on your windshield. 
 

Not promoting any of the above- they are all very expensive solutions. But they are solutions, and they are being implemented now. It's also just a drop in the bucket for what will be required. These are largely solutions for generation, not distribution. Much of the distribution infrastructure- after the utility- will need to be upgraded. 
 

bobzilla said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I don't disagree with you. They have their place. I've always said that. But, they aren't the ONLY option and shouldn't be.

I think the disconnect here is that some folks in this thread are assuming that the government is going to make them the only driving option when they are simply moving toward making them the only new purchase option, not unlike when they mandated emissions standards, or OBD2, or airbags.  You stopped being able to buy a new car without a catalytic converter.  EVs won't be the only option for about 200 years... a point at which owning an ICE car will be impractical due to a dwindling demand.  But even in the year 2150, if you want to track down a 1957 Chevy and restore it and drive it, my prediction you'll be able to.  125 years after the "takeover" of automobiles, you can still ride a horse, it's just impractical since you can't use them on much of the newer road infrastructure and the hotels don't have stables anymore.  But I can still buy bits, saddles, stirrups, and horse feed.

I think the miscommunication is that you (and some others in the thread) are unable to share the possible opinion that making new sales be EV doesn't mean you can't drive an ICE vehicle.  Your opinion is that making all new sales EV will force people to abandon their ICE or at least force people to buy EVs.  Others' opinions don't jive with that, so you're inferring that we're calling you dumb or a troglodyte.

It's just a difference of opinion in the perception of what the future will look like with EVs on the horizon.  I never said you were dumb, or lost your mind, or a troglodyte.  I was just introducing information.  You didn't agree with it and you're taking it personally.

Using Tom's anchovy metaphor, it's like we're all sitting here discussing which one of us likes anchovies and which ones don't.  Tom1200 likes the taste because he grew up with them, while Ian F might dislike the taste because he has a different tongue, but it feels like some are saying they don't like anchovies because there was an article where a man ate anchovies and got attacked by a cat because he smelled like fish.  It's a little wild to suddenly assume that (for instance) buying a Bolt will cause your house to burst into flames, or that the entire grid will collapse because of a few areas of CA having trouble keeping up, or that the government is making us buy EVs. 

We're just discussing different views.  I think some of you are misinformed, some of you think I'm bandwagon sheep.  I'm not offended about it.  It's how the world works.  The only way I would judge you is if you don't like beer.  Them's fightin words.

2023BD said:

In reply to tuna55 :

  ummm.  56 degrees for a daily avg temp in the winter is not cold, that is shorts weather. 

In all fairness my mother in law wraps up in a winter coat, scarf, mittens and long johns when it hits 60, but they live in Tucson and are much happier at 100. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I get you. The other issue that is being ignored/talked past is the infrastructure as well. In one of these before when we were discussing California being new EV by 2028 or whatever it was I ran the numbers of what type of load that change would be. Cali sells something like 2 million new cars a year. The additional strain on the infrastructure even using their "gradual" increase was something like adding 200k new homes in that same time span.California permitted 450k new homes in the last 4 years combined. That's not a trivial thing to ignore. 

Extrapolate that out to the rest of the US, which sells 7 times that many new cars (a little over a 14.8million last year) and you are now looking at an additional 1.4 million homes added to the grid every single year plus actual new homes which are somewhere around 1.4 million now. Basically doubling the demand on the current infrastructure. That's a serious issue we need to address and not poo poo away as "deniers" or whatever. 

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Im as worried about unreasonably expensive energy as much as I am unreliable energy. They result in the same thing, people dont have energy

In reply to Opti :

Also remember taxes on gasoline/diesel that are used to rebuild and maintain roads. When that volume decreases where do they get the money to pay for those projects? 

bobzilla said:

tuna55 said:

2023BD said:

Some in the south may find a Bolt with rebates and discounts and no cold weather is better financially. 

 

The only thing true about this sentence for the two people on here who actually drive a Bolt and log the actual costs is the word "Bolt". I do live in the South, but plenty of cold weather, no rebate and no discount.

I didn't realize that SC had below zero weather weeks at a time. How do all those palm trees not burst?

wait, you are calling 34* "cold"? You southerners are so funny. 

First off, I spent the first 24 years of my life in upstate NY in the highest snowfall in the country. I've waited for the bus in -35 F before.

Second, the low in December I think was 6. On that morning, I started the Bolt up from the app, got in and drove to work, and nothing was different at all, not even really the range.

So yes, the car works just fine in colder temperatures.

But by all means, don't let anyone's actual experiences get you down, just keep arguing nobody over nothing, being as nasty and ridiculous as you can be, all the whole accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of doing the same.

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

Here is the problem with the no new ICE doesnt mean you cant have an ICE argument. If you tell the majority of Americans they cant buy a new ICE you are effectively telling them they cant own an ICE just a few years after that. Most Americans dont have money to pay cash for a car, financing is harder on an older car. Repair costs generally rise as a car ages and has more miles, most Americans dont have money for repairs (and rely on new car warrantys) and cant do it themselves. Yes ICE cars will still be around but if they actually manage to enforce this legislation, they wont be for long. Yes I will always have access to an ICE car unless the govt changes its ming, but most people wont, and many people will be in a worse position for it.

The whole reason they are enacting this legislation, is to get rid of ICE cars, but if they outright ban them, they get a bunch of pushback, if they say only new ones, they have the defense you are using "keep your ICE" but everyone knows it wont be long until ICE cars will not be feasible for the vast majority of Americans, its literally your whole point. 

That argument doesnt hold water

They also told me I could keep my current insurance plan in 2010.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I don't disagree with you. They have their place. I've always said that. But, they aren't the ONLY option and shouldn't be.

I think the disconnect here is that some folks in this thread are assuming that the government is going to make them the only driving option when they are simply moving toward making them the only new purchase option, not unlike when they mandated emissions standards, or OBD2, or airbags.  You stopped being able to buy a new car without a catalytic converter.  EVs won't be the only option for about 200 years... a point at which owning an ICE car will be impractical due to a dwindling demand.  But even in the year 2150, if you want to track down a 1957 Chevy and restore it and drive it, my prediction you'll be able to.  125 years after the "takeover" of automobiles, you can still ride a horse, it's just impractical since you can't use them on much of the newer road infrastructure and the hotels don't have stables anymore.  But I can still buy bits, saddles, stirrups, and horse feed.

I think the miscommunication is that you (and some others in the thread) are unable to share the possible opinion that making new sales be EV doesn't mean you can't drive an ICE vehicle.  Your opinion is that making all new sales EV will force people to abandon their ICE or at least force people to buy EVs.  Others' opinions don't jive with that, so you're inferring that we're calling you dumb or a troglodyte.

It's just a difference of opinion in the perception of what the future will look like with EVs on the horizon.  I never said you were dumb, or lost your mind, or a troglodyte.  I was just introducing information.  You didn't agree with it and you're taking it personally.

Using Tom's anchovy metaphor, it's like we're all sitting here discussing which one of us likes anchovies and which ones don't.  Tom1200 likes the taste because he grew up with them, while Ian F might dislike the taste because he has a different tongue, but it feels like some are saying they don't like anchovies because there was an article where a man ate anchovies and got attacked by a cat because he smelled like fish.  It's a little wild to suddenly assume that (for instance) buying a Bolt will cause your house to burst into flames, or that the entire grid will collapse because of a few areas of CA having trouble keeping up, or that the government is making us buy EVs. 

We're just discussing different views.  I think some of you are misinformed, some of you think I'm bandwagon sheep.  I'm not offended about it.  It's how the world works.  The only way I would judge you is if you don't like beer.  Them's fightin words.

I'm really sorry. I don't like beer.  While I've had a sip or two in my life,  altogether I've drank maybe two cans?   Only to be polite.  
 I'm a Wino.   Not the expensive ones you have to raise your little finger to drink. 
   I prefer soft fruity ones.  But the after taste is important.  

In reply to Boost_Crazy :

Great that gives you stored voltage and current capacity.  It still doesn't produce a stable 60 hz frequency, therefore cannot support the grid!  

In reply to bobzilla :

They will just find another "small" tax for everyone to pay.

Last I looked the vast majority of the gas tax money meant for maintenance on roads went to new projects, explains why infrastructure and roads are so garbage in most places.

Then they want to make a new tax because they need more money for our "failing infrastructure."

In reply to tuna55 :

We saw a large decrease on our volt in anything under about 45. 20-35%. Different animals, but its good to see that some EVs arent as affected by temperatures as others.

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:

some are saying they don't like anchovies because there was an article where a man ate anchovies and got attacked by a cat because he smelled like fish. 

The only way I would judge you is if you don't like beer.  Them's fightin words.

Looks like I need to stock up on cat traps and Guinness............for safety reasons of course.

bobzilla said:

In reply to Opti :

Also remember taxes on gasoline/diesel that are used to rebuild and maintain roads. When that volume decreases where do they get the money to pay for those projects? 

Really?  You honestly wonder how a politician will get money?  
      I'll bet one party will make a suggestion. The other party will make fun  of the first party.   They'll go through a whole election cycle bad mouthing each other.  Meanwhile  the states will figure it out.  Maybe add a tax  to those fast charging sites.  So only out of state people will pay for the roads? 

tuna55 said:

bobzilla said:

tuna55 said:

2023BD said:

Some in the south may find a Bolt with rebates and discounts and no cold weather is better financially. 

 

The only thing true about this sentence for the two people on here who actually drive a Bolt and log the actual costs is the word "Bolt". I do live in the South, but plenty of cold weather, no rebate and no discount.

I didn't realize that SC had below zero weather weeks at a time. How do all those palm trees not burst?

wait, you are calling 34* "cold"? You southerners are so funny. 

First off, I spent the first 24 years of my life in upstate NY in the highest snowfall in the country. I've waited for the bus in -35 F before.

Second, the low in December I think was 6. On that morning, I started the Bolt up from the app, got in and drove to work, and nothing was different at all, not even really the range.

 

So yes, the car works just fine in colder temperatures.

 

But by all means, don't let anyone's actual experiences get you down, just keep arguing nobody over nothing, being as nasty and ridiculous as you can be, all the whole accusing everyone who doesn't agree with you of doing the same.

Yeah, I don't know anyone with electric vehicles. Nope. Not the friend that had the Tesla and was driving 110 miles a day. Nope. Or the co-worker with the Bolt. Definitely not the boss with the Leaf. Every single one of them saw a 10-20% decrease in range during winter here in the midwest. Worse if it was below zero for more than a few days. 

But you're right. Those are not MY experiences only ones that have been shared with me. BTW all but one have gone back to Hybrids over the EV. The Bolt owner just traded it for a newer one. 

And yes, southerners are funny about weather. You see what they do with a dusting of snow? It's hilarious.

frenchyd said:

bobzilla said:

In reply to Opti :

Also remember taxes on gasoline/diesel that are used to rebuild and maintain roads. When that volume decreases where do they get the money to pay for those projects? 

Really?  You honestly wonder how a politician will get money?  
      I'll bet one party will make a suggestion. The other party will make fun  of the first party.   They'll go through a whole election cycle bad mouthing each other.  Meanwhile  the states will figure it out.  Maybe add a tax  to those fast charging sites.  So only out of state people will pay for the roads? 

I pay taxes to fix the roads and then buy Z71 package vehicles so the potholes that never get repaired don't damage my vehicle.  The tax revenue collected isn't a problem.  It's the expenditures and priorities that are the problem.  

frenchyd said:

I'm really sorry. I don't like beer.  While I've had a sip or two in my life,  altogether I've drank maybe two cans?   Only to be polite.  
 I'm a Wino.   Not the expensive ones you have to raise your little finger to drink. 
   I prefer soft fruity ones.  But the after taste is important.  

DAMMIT, FRENCHYD... now we can't be friends  

Opti said:

In reply to tuna55 :

We saw a large decrease on our volt in anything under about 45. 20-35%. Different animals, but its good to see that some EVs arent as affected by temperatures as others.

There's a small drop over a perfect day. You'll have less range at cold or hot days than you will at like 65. But the 6 degree day wasn't noticably different than the 25 degree day, etc. 

In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :

I like beer but I don't like IPA's. Where does that leave me?

In reply to bobzilla :

Someone with good taste