I still don't see EV's Replacing ICEs.

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

They have a website dedicated to it. Budget.ny.gov. You can look at whatever part of the legislation you want

Mustang50 said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

I think the battery technology and the affordability need to be improved significantly. 

MOST def. Like all the plattitudes I can spout about how little I pay for energy don't matter when someone physically doesn't have the dosh to buy one of the damn things.

  Are the batteries still efficient in sub-freezing weather? 

I know I lost range this winter, but Tesla's software is so good at predicting how much range I have based on my driving (coupled with I rarely ever fully charge my car) I didn't loose more than 5-6 miles while it was parked at work to keep itself warm. I've stuck charging mine to a max of 80% daily for lifespan 

Also the batteries are not repairable if you get in an accident, they need to be replaced completely.

Yeah and I'm really stuck on that question to, because I'm also a firefighter/paramedic and it's a stupid complicated question. Cause like, my Model 3 is a 2019; it has 4 separate "packs" for it's battery, so conceivably if I got T-boned and one cell "pack" was bad I COULD source a replacement. But as a firefighter, if a car has that much intrusion it's likely not salvageable anyway and my insurance would write it all off; and on top of that, we've seen experiments on Muroe LIVE with the fully sealed/potted Model Y/Cybertruck battery with the new 4680s and they have WAY better torsional rigidity and fire resistance. We're really in the "give and take" position now, where making a battery pack more modular and repairable really injures safety since by it's nature I then have to be able to remove cells from potting.

Currently we rely on foreign sources for them, I would like to see more domestic sources.

Same. Oklahoma is getting a solar panel factory from Enel soon, but I can't remember which specific lithium battery plants are going up in Ohio.

They will be improved in time and they may dominate the market then.  But the electric grid has to be robust enough to handle all of the charging stations.  And we have to be able to recycle the old batteries so we don't create another problem.

Thankfully we can handle the load. If we can dry our clothes and turn our ACs on in winter with no problems, we can charge our stuff 

You might wanna take a look at Redwood Recycling which is showing a lot of success in lithium recovery. Since the metals inside are 99% pure already lithium battery recycling is gonna be the next big investment; their biggest problem is dealing with the electrolyte right now (the part that goes up in flames), though if you freeze em' like meat they lack the energy to oxidize. I know the lead battery creator for Zero Motorcycles, Luke Workman, is also working with lithium recycling and that was his process.

In reply to frenchyd :

GM is forecasting their battery costs will be brought down from $142 KWH. TO $87 KEH.  In 18 months.  
  LG is their battery supplier and they are in direct competition with Tesla. 

MERCEDES BENZ  is planning on using their radial motor which is light weight and extremely powerful 

  Using existing battery packs they have recorded 1000 KM on a single charge.  (740 miles?)  but in fine print it says they were using hyper mileage techniques. 
      I wasn't aware that was available  for EV's   Apparently it can work.  And possibly double the forecast mileage.  

GIRTHQUAKE said:

Mustang50 said:

In reply to GIRTHQUAKE :

I think the battery technology and the affordability need to be improved significantly. 

MOST def. Like all the plattitudes I can spout about how little I pay for energy don't matter when someone physically doesn't have the dosh to buy one of the damn things.

  Are the batteries still efficient in sub-freezing weather? 

I know I lost range this winter, but Tesla's software is so good at predicting how much range I have based on my driving (coupled with I rarely ever fully charge my car) I didn't loose more than 5-6 miles while it was parked at work to keep itself warm. I've stuck charging mine to a max of 80% daily for lifespan 

Also the batteries are not repairable if you get in an accident, they need to be replaced completely.

Yeah and I'm really stuck on that question to, because I'm also a firefighter/paramedic and it's a stupid complicated question. Cause like, my Model 3 is a 2019; it has 4 separate "packs" for it's battery, so conceivably if I got T-boned and one cell "pack" was bad I COULD source a replacement. But as a firefighter, if a car has that much intrusion it's likely not salvageable anyway and my insurance would write it all off; and on top of that, we've seen experiments on Muroe LIVE with the fully sealed/potted Model Y/Cybertruck battery with the new 4680s and they have WAY better torsional rigidity and fire resistance. We're really in the "give and take" position now, where making a battery pack more modular and repairable really injures safety since by it's nature I then have to be able to remove cells from potting.

Currently we rely on foreign sources for them, I would like to see more domestic sources.

Same. Oklahoma is getting a solar panel factory from Enel soon, but I can't remember which specific lithium battery plants are going up in Ohio.

They will be improved in time and they may dominate the market then.  But the electric grid has to be robust enough to handle all of the charging stations.  And we have to be able to recycle the old batteries so we don't create another problem.

Thankfully we can handle the load. If we can dry our clothes and turn our ACs on in winter with no problems, we can charge our stuff 

You might wanna take a look at Redwood Recycling which is showing a lot of success in lithium recovery. Since the metals inside are 99% pure already lithium battery recycling is gonna be the next big investment; their biggest problem is dealing with the electrolyte right now (the part that goes up in flames), though if you freeze em' like meat they lack the energy to oxidize. I know the lead battery creator for Zero Motorcycles, Luke Workman, is also working with lithium recycling and that was his process.

I think there was something on 60 minutes about recycling lithium.  

This is what I like about this forum, we can have an intelligent discussion about a controversial subject without resorting to name calling and insults.  The bottom line for me is EV's are here and they are getting better, but I would like it to be my decision not a government entity as to what vehicle I purchase.  As I've stated previously I hope the government doesn't decide to regulate our hobby.  I want to be able to keep and drive my 97 Mustang and pass it on to my daughter.

In reply to Mustang50 :

North Dakota just announced a massive discovery of rare earth minerals.  30 feet deep!  

Mustang50 said:

This is what I like about this forum, we can have an intelligent discussion about a controversial subject without resorting to name calling and insults.  The bottom line for me is EV's are here and they are getting better, but I would like it to be my decision not a government entity as to what vehicle I purchase.  As I've stated previously I hope the government doesn't decide to regulate our hobby.  I want to be able to keep and drive my 97 Mustang and pass it on to my daughter.

I see no movement by anyone towards that. 
   You occasionally read about suggestions along those lines but spend a little time researching them and it's all speculation, could, maybe, non credible source etc.  

economically  the auto hobby industry  is hundreds of billions of dollars. That goes way beyond you or me.  
Since you can still buy parts for a Ford model T  that may be 100 years old.  And restore steam powered tractors and trains burning coal. With no movement towards stopping that. It's just not going to happen.  

Both Ford and Tesla are in consultation to each build about a 46 Giga watt factory for lithium batteries in the US.  Projected cost is 3.5 billion dollars. Each.  
       

frenchyd said:

Both Ford and Tesla are in consultation to each build about a 46 Giga watt factory for lithium batteries in the US.  Projected cost is 3.5 billion dollars. Each.  
       

I can't find anything about Ford and Tesla consulting each other. I can find that Ford is working with Chinese supplier CATL about building a battery plant. From February, updated yesterday.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/ford-ev-battery-plant-china-catl.html

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

Both Ford and Tesla are in consultation to each build about a 46 Giga watt factory for lithium batteries in the US.  Projected cost is 3.5 billion dollars. Each.  
       

I can't find anything about Ford and Tesla consulting each other. I can find that Ford is working with Chinese supplier CATL about building a battery plant. From February, updated yesterday.

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/02/13/ford-ev-battery-plant-china-catl.html

They are both (Ford and Tesla) consulting with CATL.  
   A bit more.     .5 billion of Tesla's 3.5 billion  is to be spent on the Semi truck factory.  Tesla intends to build Semi trucks for itself to bring materials into the Nevada battery factory.  And into its other Giga factories  plus sales to others.   Elon Musk is forecasting 100,000 Semi's 

  Tesla's pick up truck will be coming off the Texas plants lines this  summer.   
    But that factory  is building battery storage capacity  to provide power to Texas.  Charging the batteries during off peak low cost periods and selling it back as rates climb with demand.  

Fire!

Hertz made 8.7 billion profit last year main source? Renting Tesla's 

   New Mexico putting up 900 of the biggest wind generators.  It's not the state, it's private co. Western Sprit wind? Spending 5 billion  dollars to provide electricity to 3 million people. 
3,500 megawatt  transmitting as much as 550 miles. 

preach (dudeist priest) said:

Fire!

I'm pretty sure it's against the rules to shout "Fire!" and post a link to an article about an EV fire in a crowded thread full of greenies. 

Plus it's not very accurate.  
    More ICE's burn than EV's.   EV's need a unique set of circumstances in order to burn Gasoline on the other hand is extremely easy to ignite. 
   Plus running an ICE in a closed garage will kill you but not an EV. 

frenchyd said:

Plus it's not very accurate.  
    More ICE's burn than EV's.   EV's need a unique set of circumstances in order to burn Gasoline on the other hand is extremely easy to ignite. 
   Plus running an ICE in a closed garage will kill you but not an EV. 

I have experienced several ICE car fires and one ICE kart fire and zero EV fires, not sure if that's a big enough sample set ;)

frenchyd said:

Mustang50 said:

This is what I like about this forum, we can have an intelligent discussion about a controversial subject without resorting to name calling and insults.  The bottom line for me is EV's are here and they are getting better, but I would like it to be my decision not a government entity as to what vehicle I purchase.  As I've stated previously I hope the government doesn't decide to regulate our hobby.  I want to be able to keep and drive my 97 Mustang and pass it on to my daughter.

I see no movement by anyone towards that. 
   You occasionally read about suggestions along those lines but spend a little time researching them and it's all speculation, could, maybe, non credible source etc.  

economically  the auto hobby industry  is hundreds of billions of dollars. That goes way beyond you or me.  
Since you can still buy parts for a Ford model T  that may be 100 years old.  And restore steam powered tractors and trains burning coal. With no movement towards stopping that. It's just not going to happen.  

Even in TX legislators have gone after auto hobbyists.  I feel like you live in a different world sometimes.  Ask the guys at that make the Goblin kit cars.  The TX auto dealers association got super close to making it illegal to build and register a kit car.  I made several calls to various state legislators.  It has and will continue to happen.  You'd be hard pressed to say CARB hasn't impacted the auto hobby.  
 

And for everyone that thinks EV and energy policy in general operate in some vacuum and don't effect people maybe a pop culture example will entertain and inspire thought.

And the push for green energy in Germany had them tear down some windmills recently to expand a coal mine....  

frenchyd said:

Plus it's not very accurate.  
    More ICE's burn than EV's.   EV's need a unique set of circumstances in order to burn Gasoline on the other hand is extremely easy to ignite. 
   Plus running an ICE in a closed garage will kill you but not an EV. 

One reason because there are significantly more ICEs.....  the long term fire data on EVs is pretty much nonexistent.  

preach (dudeist priest) said:

Fire!

PUT THE SMOKE BACK IN, IT MAKES THE CAR GO

I'll grab the fire risks on EVs later. They're way lower in rate than gas but there's even less to save than a typical gas engine fire.

frenchyd said:

Hertz made 8.7 billion profit last year main source? Renting Tesla's 

   New Mexico putting up 900 of the biggest wind generators.  It's not the state, it's private co. Western Sprit wind? Spending 5 billion  dollars to provide electricity to 3 million people. 
3,500 megawatt  transmitting as much as 550 miles. 

No, they didn't. Revenue and profit are two different things. 

https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/HTZ/hertz-global-holdings/revenue

In reply to z31maniac :

So out of that 8.7 billion revenue, how much was profit?   

GIRTHQUAKE said:

preach (dudeist priest) said:

Fire!

PUT THE SMOKE BACK IN, IT MAKES THE CAR GO

I'll grab the fire risks on EVs later. They're way lower in rate than gas but there's even less to save than a typical gas engine fire.

Not if you exclude the Italians.

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

So out of that 8.7 billion revenue, how much was profit?   

If you make a claim, its on you to prove it, not on anyone else to disprove it...... even though I went ahead and did that for you. 

In reply to preach (dudeist priest) :

Speaking of Italians, the little Fiat 500 E  sells for $52,000  while you can buy a new Chinese made car with the same specs for $12,000.  Actually with 90? Some Chinese car manufactures  I'm not sure that particular company is still in business.   The information is a couple of days old and I just don't want to go through that whole list 

I do know BYD is bringing a lot of their cars to Europe  in an attempt to stay profitable.  
    
So far only Tesla and BYD are making a profit building and selling  EV's 

    Everybody else is losing money big time on the EV's they sell $20,000-30,000 loss are numbers I hear bantered about. Tesla's profit per car varies, at one point it was $9000+  then battery prices went up and it dropped, Elon Musk lowered car prices and it went down  again but now bsttery prices are coming down again and one source has profit per car over $10,000
      
yet they are all switching to EV sales.   
  Interesting set of numbers.  
 In 2019 global auto mfg debt was 1.1 trillion dollars. 2022 it was 2.1 Trillion.  And now companies have committed 4.7 trillion dollars in an attempt to follow Tesla's lead.  

frenchyd said:

In reply to preach (dudeist priest) :

Speaking of Italians, the little Fiat 500 E  sells for $52,000  while you can buy a new Chinese made car with the same specs for $12,000.  Actually with 90? Some Chinese car manufactures  I'm not sure that particular company is still in business.   The information is a couple of days old and I just don't want to go through that whole list 

I do know BYD is bringing a lot of their cars to Europe  in an attempt to stay profitable.  
    
So far only Tesla and BYD are making a profit building and selling  EV's 

    Everybody else is losing money big time on the EV's they sell $20,000-30,000 loss are numbers I hear bantered about. Tesla's profit per car varies, at one point it was $9000+  then battery prices went up and it dropped, Elon Musk lowered car prices and it went down  again but now bsttery prices are coming down again and one source has profit per car over $10,000
      
yet they are all switching to EV sales.   
  Interesting set of numbers.  
 In 2019 global auto mfg debt was 1.1 trillion dollars. 2022 it was 2.1 Trillion.  And now companies have committed 4.7 trillion dollars in an attempt to follow Tesla's lead.  

Do you just get enjoyment out of making stuff up? Not even close to $52k.

https://www.caranddriver.com/fiat/500e

z31maniac said:

frenchyd said:

In reply to z31maniac :

So out of that 8.7 billion revenue, how much was profit?   

If you make a claim, its on you to prove it, not on anyone else to disprove it...... even though I went ahead and did that for you. 

You remind me of my elementary teacher who took off points for not showing my work. 
      The point was not about how much profit Hertz made  but that the profit came from EV's. 
    But I'll spank my fat fingers for getting profit and sales mixed up.