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Woody
Woody GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
11/5/11 5:57 a.m.

Of all the engine options out there, I would have to say that marine engines suffer from neglect more than any others. I used to work for a yacht maintenance company and was witness to unspeakable horrors. It's a combination of poor accessibility and sporadic use. Unless you were starting with a brand new unit, which would be foolish, I wouldn't be very optimistic.

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
11/5/11 6:23 a.m.

What do you think of rebuilt ones?

I ask because I've seen a lot of services offering to rebuild these high end jet ski engines for about 2400 bucks or so.

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon SuperDork
11/5/11 7:44 a.m.

Don't get me wrong, the HP output on these things gives me a sproinger. The drawback to using these in a car application is the (lack of a) transmission; you are looking at some serious fabrication etc and when you look at, say, a 2009- up R1 Yamaha motor that makes 179.6 HP at the crank from 998cc, they warranty the damn thing for a year and it includes the sequential transmission all in one easily installed package the watercraft engines begin to look less desireable.

Ian F
Ian F SuperDork
11/5/11 9:06 a.m.

In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

But, again, what about the clutch? I thought the p-car trans is remote, the the flywheel and clutch are still bolted to the crank.

Taiden
Taiden Dork
11/5/11 9:18 a.m.

A total loss cooling system would have worked well for this guy

fasted58
fasted58 SuperDork
11/5/11 10:26 a.m.
Curmudgeon wrote: Don't get me wrong, the HP output on these things gives me a sproinger. The drawback to using these in a car application is the (lack of a) transmission; you are looking at some serious fabrication etc and when you look at, say, a 2009- up R1 Yamaha motor that makes 179.6 HP at the crank from 998cc, they warranty the damn thing for a year and it includes the sequential transmission all in one easily installed package the watercraft engines begin to look less desireable.

Agreed, and a proven 180 hp engine/ trans combo that one man can lift and has tons of ready aftermarket go fast parts.

Watercraft engines look very interesting no doubt but an R1 requires no cooling system development or trans adapters .

Curmudgeon
Curmudgeon SuperDork
11/5/11 2:02 p.m.

If the R1 doesn't make enough horsepuppies for someone there are both turbo and Roots blower kits out there. Me, if I could build something 900 pounds (including fat daddy) with 180 HP at 11K RPM I'd probably be satisfied... at least for a while.

Taiden
Taiden Dork
11/5/11 5:20 p.m.

Just steal a proven FSAE design and stick some blinkahs on it!

FlightService
FlightService Dork
11/5/11 8:00 p.m.

Issues,

Transmission

Exhaust

Non-issues

Closed loop or open loop cooling, easily converted either way.

Someone mentioned reliability, these things have roller bearings in them. The lower end is much more robust than a car. They have to be due to punching.

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
11/6/11 6:45 p.m.
Ian F wrote: In reply to DaewooOfDeath: But, again, what about the clutch? I thought the p-car trans is remote, the the flywheel and clutch are still bolted to the crank.

That would be a problem. Don't the old Alfa Transaxles put the clutch in the back?

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
11/6/11 6:49 p.m.
fasted58 wrote:
Curmudgeon wrote: Don't get me wrong, the HP output on these things gives me a sproinger. The drawback to using these in a car application is the (lack of a) transmission; you are looking at some serious fabrication etc and when you look at, say, a 2009- up R1 Yamaha motor that makes 179.6 HP at the crank from 998cc, they warranty the damn thing for a year and it includes the sequential transmission all in one easily installed package the watercraft engines begin to look less desireable.
Agreed, and a proven 180 hp engine/ trans combo that one man can lift and has tons of ready aftermarket go fast parts. Watercraft engines look very interesting no doubt but an R1 requires no cooling system development or trans adapters .

They also like to explode given any side loading, right? I thought about a bike engine but they seem to be

a) small displacement b) chain drive c) oil control challenged

One of the biggest things that had me looking at water craft motors was the factory dry sumps.

I also need something that's thin so I can fit more of those aforementioned ground effects in the car.

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
11/6/11 6:50 p.m.

@ flightservice

How would exhaust be a problem?

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Reader
11/6/11 8:06 p.m.

The R1 engines is the most easily adapted bike engine to car use as far as the oiling system goes,an $80 baffle plate and an extra cup of oil and your golden.Thats all I've done to mine and its lasted for a year with no issues,as a matter of fact its out of the summer toy and sitting in the middle of a geo metro for ice race duty this winter.

fasted58
fasted58 SuperDork
11/6/11 9:10 p.m.
DaewooOfDeath wrote:

They also like to explode given any side loading, right? I thought about a bike engine but they seem to be

a) small displacement b) chain drive c) oil control challenged

One of the biggest things that had me looking at water craft motors was the factory dry sumps.

I also need something that's thin so I can fit more of those aforementioned ground effects in the car.

Stohr/ Suzuki DSR, fastest class in SCCA. Small displacement, chain drive, not oil control challenged, w/ ground effects.

If watercraft engines were viable in C or D Sports they would be populating the field. If a one liter engine is too small in displacement there's always the Hayabusa.

FlightService
FlightService Dork
11/6/11 9:46 p.m.
DaewooOfDeath wrote: @ flightservice How would exhaust be a problem?

Sorry I was thinking outboard. This is similar to the snowmobile engines.

Carry on

Travis_K
Travis_K SuperDork
11/7/11 2:10 a.m.

Yeah alfa transaxles have the clutch in the back. At lrast for the milano and GTV6 ones the throwout bearing is NLA, you could probably fabricate something else to work when all the used ones are gone though.

AutoXR
AutoXR Reader
11/7/11 7:36 a.m.

You can get a chain to driveshaft adaper for $75.. Quite common in the locost community.

FlightService
FlightService Dork
11/7/11 11:39 a.m.
AutoXR wrote: You can get a chain to driveshaft adaper for $75.. Quite common in the locost community.

Link please

Sky_Render
Sky_Render New Reader
11/7/11 11:54 a.m.

If anyone is interested in getting a motorbike/watercraft engine to bolt to a car's transmission, look no further than the Miatabusa project...

http://www.motoiq.com/projects/project_mazda_miatabusa.aspx

I think using abandoned Seadoo motors is a cool idea, but the inevitable lack of maintenance and required engine rehabilitation makes me think a wrecked Hayabusa would be cheaper (and easier to find, since I always thought that was how all Hayabusas ended up anyway).

stumpmj
stumpmj Dork
11/7/11 2:51 p.m.
FlightService wrote:
AutoXR wrote: You can get a chain to driveshaft adaper for $75.. Quite common in the locost community.
Link please

Hawk Machine

kevlarcorolla
kevlarcorolla Reader
11/7/11 3:13 p.m.

Busa's generally blow up the most of all the sportbike in a car engines(followed or equalled by kawi's),they need at a minimum a new billet oil pan and swinging pickup.When I was picking an engine for my project I simply didn't have the cash to invest in the busa(they demand a premium)and the $$ needed to make it relatively safe.I also couldn't bring myself to trust a pickup that swings around with the oil,it started as an autox project so lots of transitions-how fast can the pickup swing to ensure its in the oil 100% of the time?. Yes use Hawk machine,mine fit TIGHT(needs to be heated and tapped on quick).

FlightService
FlightService Dork
11/8/11 11:38 a.m.

Gold wing engine + Turbo

DaewooOfDeath
DaewooOfDeath HalfDork
11/8/11 7:21 p.m.
FlightService wrote: Gold wing engine + Turbo

I looked into this as well. The problems are the thing weighs 280 lbs, they aren't that powerful and there's basically no aftermarket.

I also looked at Yamaha V-max engines but the performance parts are pretty pricey for those and I couldn't find any info on their oiling characteristics.

sobe_death
sobe_death Reader
11/9/11 7:11 a.m.
stumpmj wrote:
FlightService wrote:
AutoXR wrote: You can get a chain to driveshaft adaper for $75.. Quite common in the locost community.
Link please
Hawk Machine

They also sell nice clutch slave brackets for when you remove the covers that are usually over the sprocket.

http://www.hawkmachine.com/slave_cyl.htm

FlightService
FlightService Dork
11/10/11 10:21 a.m.

In reply to DaewooOfDeath:

Look at the torque profile of the wing engine. You might like it. Very good with car weight.

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