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chada75
chada75 HalfDork
1/20/21 5:12 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau (I live here) :

Test drove a 2016 a few years ago. Being 6'3 and 300 pounds, I wouldn't hesitate to drive from Winston-Salem to Knoxville in a ND. Sounds like you're sold. Go get it.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner MegaDork
1/20/21 5:42 p.m.
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:

Mazda gets away with 87 on their cars because the 13:1 is actually only on the power stroke from what I understand. They hold valves open a bit extra on the compression stroke I believe and that's how they pull it off.

from an old moto IQ article

To further combat detonation, the Skyactiv engine takes full advantage of direct injection’s ability to inject fuel at different parts of the 4-stroke cycle, working closely with the engine’s variable cam timing system.  Mazda’s S-VT variable cam timing system is used on both the intake and exhaust cams to combat detonation as well by giving the engine the ability to run a lot of valve overlap. 

I ran my ND1 on both and the only difference i felt was a pickup in throttle response with 93 in it.

I'm sure Keith knows part of this since FM has dealt with tuning these cars.

Mazda definitely plays games with cam timing - on that initial 30s startup when it's making the weird noise, it's basically running with the throttle plate wide open and very retarded timing to get heat into the cat ASAP. It pulls basically no vacuum at this time. It'll apparently do it at cruise occasionally as well, which is why the car has a vacuum pump for the brakes!

We never tried to run anything lower than 91 in ours. I don't think we ever considered it.

Matthew Kennedy
Matthew Kennedy Reader
1/20/21 6:43 p.m.

I've run plenty of 87 through my 2019 RF.  It probably gets slightly worse mileage and makes less power, but it certainly isn't unhappy about it.

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) UltraDork
1/21/21 7:52 a.m.

In reply to ShawneeCreek (Forum Supporter) :

Sean thank you so much for this info. I'm definitely in the same boat as you. There is something intrinsically more attractive to me about the Fiat that I can't quantify. Going to look at both this weekend.

spacecadet (Forum Supporter)
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
1/21/21 9:37 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

yeah i forget what they call the startup procedure, but it had a specific name and I would inform customers about it. Because once it was done, you could barely hear the cars idle, but if they bought the car and I didn't tell them about it, it could have possibly resulted in customer concerns or complaints when they cold started the car and it was noticeably loud.

 

Robbie (Forum Supporter)
Robbie (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/21/21 9:45 a.m.

Static compression ratio /= dynamic compression ratio. Dynamic compression ratio is more in control of propensity to knock. Tons of motorcycles out there are running double digit static compression on 87 just fine. 

Static measures at TDC and BDC, dynamic is the same calculation but instead of BDC you use the point where the valves are all closed and the piston actually starts compressing. 

If you've got dynamic cam timing you've also got dynamic compression ratio control. 

spandak
spandak HalfDork
1/21/21 11:02 a.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

What bikes run 87? Genuinely curious, Ive never come across one.

BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter)
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/21/21 12:00 p.m.

In reply to spandak :

I've had a few - my Triumph Tiger 800 ran on 87, as did my ZXR-1200. I think my GL1500 does, too.

Matthew Kennedy
Matthew Kennedy Reader
1/21/21 12:14 p.m.

In reply to Robbie (Forum Supporter) :

bikes are also a different story since the bore is so tiny.  Small bore = knock resistance (to some extent).

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) UltraDork
1/23/21 11:10 a.m.

Just test drove a pre-owned 124 Spider. Holy berkeley that's good! 

Snrub
Snrub Dork
1/23/21 11:42 a.m.

I think the ND is better, but I think the 124 is still really good and generally underrated.

The roof in the ND GT is thicker and has a metal panel sown in. It's much quieter at highway speeds, or at least it filter out more objectionable sounds. All 124s have this better roof. If you can find the right deal, a used 124 might be a great way to go, especially for a daily. Most do NOT have a lsd. They don't seem to sell for a lot less than the ND.

I wouldn't hesitate to daily one. 6'0" is not that tall, so what if your head is close to the top? I think the ND is sublime and I'd currently own one if I had a more reasonable spouse. :)

barefootskater (Shaun)
barefootskater (Shaun) UberDork
1/23/21 12:18 p.m.

I gotta state my concern at this point. 
 

You came here saying ND. I am 110% on board with enabling that. 
 

Now you're saying Fiata?!!? That's a level of fugly on par with the pt cruiser. I understand that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but that's just gross. 

maschinenbau (I live here) said:

Just test drove a pre-owned 124 Spider. Holy berkeley that's good! 

I say go for it. This is supposed to be an indulgence. When that Fiat engine gives up the ghost, LS/V6/K24 it.

By the way, how do used Fiats scratch your Color itch?

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) UltraDork
1/23/21 12:21 p.m.

In reply to barefootskater (Shaun) :

Hahaha see I feel the opposite! In my eyes the Fiata is "stare at it in my driveway longingly" while the ND is "I know you've got a really good personality".

And this one is navy blue :)

I disagree with the ugly sentiment, but to each his/her own.

Yeah, lots of silver/grey/blacks out there. 

 

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) UltraDork
1/23/21 1:35 p.m.

More details about the one I am heavily leaning towards, almost probably definitely going to buy. We worked out a better deal including them taking my 12 year old Saturn on trade. I told them let me run my own numbers on loans vs cash and I'll be back Monday after work with my Saturn's title and keys after cleaning it out. They really, really did not want me to walk out without signing. 

2018 Classica trim (base model). $19,500 list. 10k miles.

The good: Blue paint!!! Fiat styling!!! Great value thanks to Italian depreciation. I have plenty of space in here now that I figured out the seat adjustments. Soft top seems quieter than the Miata's or that's just confirmation bias. Cloth Fiat seats seem to fit my body type very comfortably, which are thickly bolstered but also soft and forgiving. Silver alloy wheels which I greatly prefer over the Abarth's over-styled black ones, even though only 16" vs 17". Still has 16 months of warranty. Holy fark it feels fast to me and drives so dang nicely over bumps and such. But most of all, it seemed like a nice place to spend time in. And that exhaust note!

The bad: No LSD, no telescoping column, no premium audio, no Bilstein shocks, no Recaros. Column is $160 from Mazda, but I don't think I need it. I'm also not sure I would want it to ride any firmer than it is. LSD will be missed though. They say the Recaros rob a bit of headroom too. 

The interesting? Several aftermarket parts, including EC intake boot, DV+ diverter valve, quad-tip stainless exhaust with helmholtz resonator (which I think might be the Goodwin Racing system!). Dealer doesn't know if it has a tune or not, and I've never driven another Fiat to know the difference. I, of course, expressed my "sincere concern about all these hooligan hot rod parts" on the car during negotiation, even though secretly that is the exact list of mods I would want anyway, saving me at least a grand and bunch of effort. The dealer says the PO traded in for a 100th Anniv ND2 and supposedly owns a few more older Miatas. Dealer described the PO as "definitely some kind of enthusiast". Are you here, PO?

ShawneeCreek (Forum Supporter)
ShawneeCreek (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
1/23/21 1:44 p.m.

Very nice example! And a good list of modifications that come along with it. I still want to change out the exhaust on mine. I haven't seen the dark blue in person, but it looks good in pictures.

And I don't really miss the LSD. The traction and stability controls are really good in these cars. I might add one eventually, but I don't race enough to need it.

Good luck.

- Sean

Nitroracer (Forum Supporter)
Nitroracer (Forum Supporter) UltraDork
1/23/21 1:51 p.m.

Is it possible to swap in a LSD carrier from an ND MX5?  I think there are already groups parting out NDs for track builds.

Hopefully that 124 is in your drive way soon!

ShawneeCreek (Forum Supporter)
ShawneeCreek (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
1/23/21 1:59 p.m.

The LSD from a 124 Abarth swaps in easily as well.

maschinenbau (I live here)
maschinenbau (I live here) UltraDork
1/23/21 2:02 p.m.

They have different final drive ratios (MX5 2.9 vs Fiat 3.4) due to the transmission difference (Fiat has the old NC trans). They do physically interchange though, since they are the same case and flanges.

Goodwin did the MX5 diff swap to their Fiat and got 67 MPH in 2nd gear. Eventually he switched back and got an aftermark L$D. https://www.mazdatalkforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=3567&start=45#p22509

Snrub
Snrub Dork
1/23/21 2:23 p.m.

I looked at one in the blue color, it's nice. I also thought the interior bits are a bit nicer on the classica vs. the lower trim NDs.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
1/23/21 2:32 p.m.

In reply to maschinenbau (I live here) :

Put the VIN in a Google search. I have found POs this way before. You might get lucky 

Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter)
Dusterbd13-michael (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/23/21 7:02 p.m.

So, im now wondering if the 3.4 nd rear end swaps for the nb....

 

karplus2
karplus2 Reader
1/23/21 9:14 p.m.

It'd be good to figure out if it has a tune. Know somebody that bought a used ND and found out that it had an E85 tune shortly after.

alfadriver (Forum Supporter)
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
1/24/21 7:46 a.m.
spacecadet (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

yeah i forget what they call the startup procedure, but it had a specific name and I would inform customers about it. Because once it was done, you could barely hear the cars idle, but if they bought the car and I didn't tell them about it, it could have possibly resulted in customer concerns or complaints when they cold started the car and it was noticeably loud.

 

Everyone has their own name for it, and the EPA has a name for it too- since it has to be monitored.  But having heard the former for +20 years, I can't remember what the latter is.

DI allows it to be a lot more aggressive.

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