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captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/16/21 3:44 p.m.

So in true GRM fashion I am starting a build thread before actually having the car in my possession.

I've had a 2013 FRS thread on this forum since it's purchase, (CLICK HERE) but sadly that car was sold two days ago. I was at a crossroads with the car. My faith in the fa20 has fallen on hard times, and instead of keeping the car with refreshed engine, I thought it would be better to start new. I need to do what I've been itching to do all year. Find a cheap blown engine roller/donor and do a good ole fashioned K swap.

It just so happens this morning I woke up to a Facebook ad selling a 2014 Whiteout FRS with a bad motor in Atlanta. It looked just like my old car so I had to do a double take. There are some differences between the two, one being that it's an automatic. Ewwww. Gotta sort that out, but it seemed like a reasonable deal for a clean titled car and best of all it isn't shagged to death like most are in my price range. In fact it's in really great shape, probably due to it being an automatic. Clean title, which is also kinda difficult when shopping the bottom of the price pit. My only other gripe is that it has a Subaru trunk with spoiler that I'm not a huge fan of. Sorta my luck that I still have a whiteout trunk without a spoiler in my attic that needs a little elbow grease.

Anyway.... the plans for the car. Kpower hasn't released their swap kit yet, but it should see the light of day very soon. In the meantime I need to source a stock FRS manual trans and parts, plus the k24 in preparation of the kit. Probably best to buy a cheap wrecked auction car to get what I need all at once and scrap the rest, but that's a bridge too far away to see.

Officially I made it about 48 hours without owning a Whiteout FRS. That's kinda neat. Party will start soon, and I'll try to document me fumbling through it.

 

Run_Away
Run_Away Dork
7/16/21 4:47 p.m.

Excellent, this is basically my attainable dream car at the moment.

Which K does the kit use, I think I remember it was the newer k24 with the integrated exhaust manifold? Those should be cheaper.

Lof8 - Andy
Lof8 - Andy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/16/21 4:55 p.m.

That should be a really fun car!  I'm in to follow!

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
7/16/21 5:04 p.m.

In. 

wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L)
wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
7/16/21 5:11 p.m.

What's the difference between a S2000 transmission, and buying the BR-Z unit and adapter plates/flywheel, etc?

Oh, and awesome project. Will follow.

calteg
calteg Dork
7/16/21 5:16 p.m.

how cheap is "cheap" in the FR-S world nowadays?

 

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/16/21 7:54 p.m.

In reply to calteg :

Market is kinda high right now but two days ago my 13 FRS with around 76k miles sold for $13250 which is only $750 less than what I paid for it two years ago. That was to a dealer network out of Dallas that flew in and paid cash for it. Could have probably got more if I wanted to deal with tire kickers for a couple weeks.

This new car cost me $5k but at least has a clean title. I think there are some out there cheaper, but condition is usually suspect and often ends up  a less desirable color. At least to me that is. I guess I should also add in the transport cost which is $900. Just a few months ago I could have got a silver one with less miles for $3k as an automatic with clean title. Hopefully when it's all said and done I'll have around $14k soup to nuts. Realistically I know that number is probably a few grand shy of what it will actually cost.

In reply to wheelsmithy (Joe-with-an-L) :

There is a motor/trans mount kit from Pure Automotive that uses the S2000 transmission, but I'd prefer to just use the FRS one. There's a couple places that already sell a flywheel and clutch setup with adapter plate for the AP2. I'm still considering piecing my own stuff together to get moving on things, but kinda want to see what the Kpower kit will cost first. The Kpower kit uses the stock trans, and I believe the CD009 will be a future power proof option.

In reply to Run_Away :

k24a2 I believe is the one to get if staying NA

 

Yes, this is awesome! Following with interest, as this is very closely aligned with my sensibilities....smiley

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/17/21 10:57 a.m.

Saving this video for the manual swap. Golleee there's some work to be done, but I think with me removing all of the engine and trans before pulling the harnesses the conversion should be easier to do. While it may be cheaper to swap from a parts car, I think doing double the work may not be worth it. There's a shop in Nixa Missouri that sells twin parts that I may just pick up everything from that is pulled from the same car and get hopefully a bulk price.

 

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/17/21 4:48 p.m.

Got what I think may be some good news. I'm not a huge fan of F-book but it has it's upsides. Marketplace and auto enthusiast groups. I joined a twins K swap group for obvious reasons and after seeing what may be a monumental time suck for auto to manual wiring harness swaps I decided to pick the minds of others blazing the trail. It sounds like I can keep both the chassis harness (engine bay) and the dash harness that comes with my donor car. One fellow said I will probably need to swap out the auto VDC module for a manual one but that's about it other than hard parts like pedal assembly, trans, clutch slave/master, etc.

This could potentially save me HOURS of work and a good chunk of money as well. Not going to do a full dance celebration just yet, but there is hope. I'll take it.

 

Now, on to some of the options available for this whole swap. I kinda touched on this before, but I would like to lay out a few options of how I or someone else could tackle it.

1. Pure Motorsport engine and trans mount kit which uses solid delrin bushings. NVH is probably going to be bonkers. The kit is about $500 which isn't too bad, but for what you get I think I'd rather do scratch made and uses stock motor mounts. Then use the 2nrs adapter plate for an s2000 trans for $280. A flywheel from 2nrs which I believe is Clutchmasters for $500. The clutch is another $500 roughly. Custom made drive shaft is needed, and from what I understand this moves the shifter back enough a custom gear selector is needed. Almost forgot an s2000 trans cost which is around $600-1000 depending on where you look. Still need some wiring harness work and either a Haltech or a piggy back Hondata or similar I believe.

2. Custom engine/trans mount brackets using stock rubber mounts in stock location. Collins adapters makes a trans adapter plate and flywheel combo to keep the stock FRS trans. Don't know what clutch disc is used for that kit as it's not mentioned or included, but the flywheel pics looks like some off the shelf unit. That leads me to believe there is some info out there that could lead to a cheaper solution for that. Still need custom driveshaft, and I believe this will still cause a need for a shifter location. Same stand alone or piggy back solution needed.

3. TF Works has some adapter solutions as well. There are about 4 or more sources for adapters in various different transmission configurations.

4. Just get the whole enchilada from Kpower for what I assume to be around $7-8k which still isn't including Haltech, k24 donor, or upgraded oil pump. There will be various stage options available so maybe there are some areas that can be dropped from the list.

Hope to get everything cleared from the engine bay after a few hours of attic organization. Gotta have space for the stuff I'm pulling. So excited to get going on this.

 

 

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
7/17/21 5:49 p.m.

What about dealing with getting it smog tested?

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/17/21 5:53 p.m.

In reply to docwyte :

No smog tests in Arkansas. If I wanted to stay legal for testing then the piggyback ecu is required from what I understand. Haven't looked into that much though.

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/19/21 7:53 a.m.

Just realized I posted this in the wrong section, any chance a higher power may move this puppy to the projects area?

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
7/19/21 9:46 a.m.

If the starter bolts to the engine or the adaptor plate, you use the stock flywheel and starter, and just need a clutch disk that has the right diameter for the flywheel and right spline count for the trans.

According to the Rock Auto catalog, an '11 TSX has a 225mm disk with a 1"x24 spline shaft.  A '13 BRZ has a 230mm disk... with a 1"x24 shaft.   Well, that makes it easy.

The BRZ disk might also just go right on to the Honda flywheel and work just fine as is.  It's only 2.5mm extra radius, there may be enough extra room on the flywheel or the clutch disk might be slightly undersized, or both.

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/19/21 10:09 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Funny you noticed all of that. I got in contact with Collins adapters and this is what he said is used for their kit:

This system actually uses an off-the-shelf TSX flywheel and TSX pressure plate. The clutch disc is custom though. So is the pilot bearing adapter and the slave cylinder adapter in order to get everything to work correctly. We have got it worked out though and it is pretty awesome that it uses a lot of off-the-shelf parts.

I'm still trying to find out more details on the clutch though. Seems weird you would need a custom disc when using an off the shelf pressure plate and flywheel. I also assume that the FRS and RSX share the same ring gear pattern or the adapter plate compensates for that. I believe there is support needed for the pilot bearing in most of these kits which explains a custom flywheel for most applications. I'm curious how they have tackled all of this. More questions have been asked but awaiting a reply as of this morning.

One thing I've been racking my brain over as well is trans gearing between the FRS and s2000. There's around 6mph difference in 1st gear, 4.6mph in second, and 3.8 for 3rd. The s2000 trans will give you a little more mph but wondering if it's enough to justify going that direction or not.

 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
7/19/21 10:18 a.m.

In reply to captainawesome :

Pressure plate just needs to match up to the flywheel, the disk is the part between species A and species B.  For the most part, the friction materials are all the same thickness, but maybe not in this case.

I'm personally curious about the spline toothforms, if a Honda disk would fit the 86 trans, no fancy work needed.

Ring gear is no big deal if the adaptor plate has a spot for the Honda starter.  (99% certain it bolts to the trans bellhousing face)  Then you just use the Honda starter.

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/19/21 11:01 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

I could probably buy a cheap alignment tool to compare splines? Should be close enough to go by I would think. If anything that may be the reasoning for using a custom clutch disc is that the splines aren't the same between the two? Then it could just be an exercise in finding a disc of the right diameter, thickness, proper material structure to be compatible with the RSX stuff.

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/19/21 11:43 a.m.

Looks like FJD025U Exedy disc might work. It's 225mm disc with a 24t/1" spline. If thickness is the same as the TSX setup then all that's left is figuring out throwout bearing and fork configurations. Of course pilot bearing will need consideration as well.

Median
Median New Reader
7/19/21 12:02 p.m.

Following along to see how this pans out. smiley

AxeHealey
AxeHealey GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/19/21 12:26 p.m.

I only use FB for the car for sale groups. Saw the Miata for sale last week and wondered what was next...

 

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/19/21 1:07 p.m.

In reply to AxeHealey :

I tried to like "the answer" but should have known it wasn't for me. I didn't really want one to begin with, but logic dictates I am supposed go that direction. The good news is I now know it wasn't or isn't the car for me without question.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
7/19/21 5:01 p.m.

In reply to captainawesome :

I am pretty sure that Chevy and Chrysler can share the same diameter and spline count (1 1/6x10?) but the tooth forms are different.  But that's for a fairly large square edged spline.

 

I would NOT trust a plastic alignment tool.  Those rarely are very accurate, actually pretty sloppy and useless for actual disk lineup.   The only way to be sure would be to try to slip a K24 clutch disk on the 86 trans you are going to use.  Maybe you can get a used one from someone?  Or waste $40ish on the cheapest eBay disk you can find, just as a testing tool.  Like this one

I am fairly sure that the same transmission is used in a lot of other vehicles, maybe one of them has a 225mm disk, assuming that the 230mm won't be close enough to work and the Honda part doesn't fit for whatever reason.

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/19/21 5:43 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

The FJD025U Exedy disc I posted is for a Subaru trans so it has the same spline pattern as the Frs. It just happens to be the same outside disc diameter as what the TSX uses. I believe that's what could be used but until I have parts on hand I can't be certain. So TSX flywheel and pressure plate but Subaru Baja clutch disc. The biggest unknown is how the sprung hub functions for both with the normally intended pressure plate and flywheel. Or at least make sure there is clearance for them to jive. My guess is there won't be an issue but that still leaves pilot bearing support as it's been mentioned by folks mating the two can be an issue to address.
 

Collins adapters has confirmed they are putting together a kit with engine mounts and trans solution combined. Not sure how quickly that will happen but having another place to shop will be nice.

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/19/21 9:18 p.m.

Looks like 2009 and up TSX runs a 1"/24t spline as well with the 225mm diameter disc. Not sure if the teeth are the same pattern but another option to look at. Part number HCK1009 for clutch kit and HCF001 or HCF513 for flywheel. Need to double check bolt pattern is same as previous TSX years as well for flywheel. Hoping I can find some folks with some different versions laying around to test or measure.

Any ideas on how to add additional support for the pilot bearing? Press in sleeve with machined cup for bearing to protrude enough for proper support? On some BMW setups there are spacers used between the crank and flywheel, but usually those are around an 1/8 or so thick if I remember correctly.

captainawesome
captainawesome Dork
7/20/21 8:37 a.m.

I may have found the pilot bearing support solution, or at least how to tackle the issue. Retro Turbo has a part that addresses the main shaft support required from swapping out the dual mass flywheel to single. They have made a press in adapter that pushes the pilot bearing out further to give better support. Simple solution. Don't know the measurements of their product but maybe it could be purchased and sent stateside cheap enough to modify? Or enlist someone with good enough lathe skills to put my future measurements into a working part. If that works then I think the next part to tackle is getting the proper throw with the clutch fork and throwout bearing for proper engagement.

Retro Turbo M90 Mainshaft Support Adapter

 

 

Found another example of similar, so looks to be a viable solution.

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