Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 1:12 p.m.

The off season is nearly here and moving the pedals is pretty high on my list of desired changes. The reason is primarily safety as where my current seating position is in order to comfortably manipulate the pedals and steering wheel have me in a forward position. The problem is while practicing emergency exits of the car I figured out that with my fire suit and neck brace on I can not get out, unless I can slide the seat back OR tilt the steering wheel up First. To be clear this is with releasing the neck brace clips. But until I move a certain amount the belts/brace still hold me up. However the biggest problem is that in the seating position there is less than half of the side window available for exit space. Moving the seating position rearward would open up a significant amount of exit space. I'm looking at approximately 6 to 8" moved to the rear. This also has the benefit of putting more side impact cage protection around me and improving Front/Rear weight bias. Just because its for safety doesn't mean it can't be for performance either, right?

Which brings me to pedal boxes. I can't in any real good way just extend the pedal surfaces by several inches and moving/using the factory pedals would have some pretty big and awkward things to figure out. I have a used 2 pedal hanging Wilwood assembly on the shelf but with where it would require a mount at isn't close to anything worthy of mounting it to. Then there's getting the throttle figured out. Which brings me to a 3 pedal floor mount assembly probably being the best solution. However I have questions. 

1. Is the feel of a floor mount vs hanging pedal assembly significantly different?

2. Cost vs features. There has to be a good balance here somewhere

3. Since most pedal assemblies have separate master cylinders for front/rear then I'll be forced to revamp the brake system unless a solution exist where I could still run the booster and single master. However I'm leaning towards brake system changes anyway not as big of a concern. I'll be forced to convert to a hydraulic clutch also with a pedal box.

4. Brand: Wilwood, Tilton, something else?

5. The throttle. Most assemblies I see appear to be set up for a push/pull rod vs cable. I assume there must be additional add-on parts for various solutions.

6. First hand experiences?

paddygarcia
paddygarcia GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/26/22 2:05 p.m.

I can't speak to the race pedal sets, but the floor mounts on air cooled Porsche and VW definitely feel different than top hung pedals. Once you get used to them they're just as good IMO.

Tom1200
Tom1200 UberDork
9/26/22 2:24 p.m.

My Formula 500 (along with probably every other formula car) has floor mounted pedals (Tilton) and the difference between those and my Datsun (hanging pedals) isn't enough to write home about.

The F500 is a semi reclined car and while the Datsun seat is pretty much on the floor the angle of my legs is a bit different between the two so there may be differences in floor vs hanging in a production car that I may not notice.  I do also drive a ton of old Porsches and never give the floor  mount pedals in those a thought either.

I do have one question; Can you bail out the passenger side is need be? In my Datsun there isn't a passenger seat so when I practice I've found it faster to go that way then dropping the window net and climbing out.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/26/22 2:31 p.m.

The feel isn't massively different and you'll soon forget what kind of pedals the car has (my floor-mount experience is with purpose-built race cars and karts where you basically sit on the floor, and sim rigs with very upright Subaru-style seating positions which are probably better suited to floor-mounted pedals, both seem fine).

You should consider DIYing your own pedal box as it has a few advantages: Retaining the current brake hydraulic system could be an option, you could engineer your own solution for the throttle cable and possibly even the clutch cable, you could have more control over packaging, and you could avoid the butt-puckering costs of units from Tilton/Wilwood etc.

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 2:46 p.m.

In reply to Tom1200 :

I don't have a window net to contend with yet. I could try going out the passenger side, still have the shifter, center consol and passenger seat to deal with (Street Mod car so it's full interior). The real solution is probably a quick release steering wheel hub. But that extra height will push me back enough that the pedals get awkward when the steering wheel works. Last weekend I went one notch too far forward on my seat slider (realized it too late to fix) and it completely ruined my interaction with the car that run.

As for seating position I prefer an upright one and high in the car as I like to be able to see over the hood as much as possible. Car is still driven on the street so that's important for parking. I guess my biggest track day concern is how heel-toe is going to be with the floor mount vs hanging since everything is swinging on an opposite arc.

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 2:51 p.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

DIYing is an option. My current setup works well but could be better. Problem is I just don't know what I don't know about how much better it could be. And if its worth the expense. If I went DIY then I'd probably only go back far enough to make a quick release wheel and getting out work without fuss and try to keep the pedals mounted under the dash some how.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/26/22 3:09 p.m.

Here's one tidbit, my G29 sim rig with the standing pedals is easier to heel-toe than my Toyobaru with hanging pedals (plus an oversize cover for gas). I think that has a lot more to do with how the pedals are positioned relative to each other than whether they're hanging or standing.

Here's one more outside-the-box idea, how about spacing the pedals out toward the driver like a short-person setup to gain enough space for the quick-release wheel?

danvan
danvan GRM+ Memberand Reader
9/26/22 3:14 p.m.

The floor mounted pedals in my Thunder Roadster are great if i did know they floor mounted you would never know

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 3:15 p.m.

In reply to GameboyRMH :

I'm apprehensive that big pedal spacers will create unintended side affects is feel and dynamic geometry.

You are correct that its about the pedal relation to each other. I spent a bit of effort to get my gas pedal positioned where heel-toe is a natural and fluid motion. Stock it was way too low compared to the brake pedal and had to fabricate a different throttle cable mount on the engine in order to lift the pedal up higher in the car until it was super easy to kick it with my heel.

Jesse Ransom
Jesse Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
9/26/22 3:24 p.m.

I would say that floor-hinged DO feel significantly different, but I think I prefer them. (But it's been so long since I've driven my 2002 that it's hard to say...)

I'm sure that after some minor adaptation you'd be fine.

I *think* I think it's nice for heel/toe that the brake and gas follow more similar arcs with floor-hinged pedals, but it probably matters less in a heavily-prepped car where the pedal presumably doesn't move much.

nocones
nocones GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/26/22 3:27 p.m.

I inverted a Subaru hung OEM setup to run on the floor.  My self imposed rule was don't modify the brake pedal.   Other then extending the push rod for other reasons I didn't have to.   

The MG runs a Willwood 2 pedal hanging cluster.

I don't really notice the feel difference compared to the MG which is hung pedals.  The floor mount seems to work better for the super reclined driving position of the Subaru.  I've driven Porsches with them in a more "upright" postion and they aren't bad.  Floor mount ones get a little wierd when there is a lot of pedal travel and the hinge is behind your foot so it's more of a "step on" then press situation but that's not the kind of thing you would be doing.  

 

Do you have a cage dash bar?  How does your column mount?   I would consider just running the stock pedal cluster mounted on a bracket anchored between the existing firewall and your cage dash bar.   You could just extend the pushrod and leave the master cylinders at the firewall.  

 

Ok looking on google it looks like the Gbody uses a fairly basic sheetmetal bracket to mount the pedals to the firewall with a brace to the top.  I would strongly consider extending the plates to move the pedals back 8", put a longer rod on both the brake/clutch, and then build a vertical brace that ties to the floor (or the dash bar if you have one).  You could run a lateral bar accross where your heals used to be that ties into the sill and the trans tunnel with some big ol .100 thick sheetmetal.  

Tom1200
Tom1200 UberDork
9/26/22 4:01 p.m.
Asphalt_Gundam said:

In reply to Tom1200 :

I guess my biggest track day concern is how heel-toe is going to be with the floor mount vs hanging since everything is swinging on an opposite arc.

The F500 has a CVT but on my previous single seat cars with floor mounted pedals you could heel & toe if you wanted to (note I left foot brake and go up and down the box without the clutch on most single seat cars).

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/26/22 4:04 p.m.

In reply to Asphalt_Gundam :

 Look at your car now.   If you have hanging pedals now stay with that.  If floor mounted stay with that.  Hanging pedals are way easier to bleed than floor mounted pedals. In fact you don't really have to step on the pedals just crack open the bleeder screw  and let the fluid flow until there is no more air or the  fluid clears up.  Hanging pedal assemblies are simply harder to mount.  

   Floor mounted pedals sometimes have the master cylinders below the calipers. Which adds a whole other level of complexity in bleeding brakes.  
     Second you can usually get a longer pedal with hanging pedals than floor mounted pedals.  That helps tremendously on the leverage. Bigger heavier faster cars benefit from longer pedals while smaller lighter( formula cars or less than 1500# ) cars not so much.  Finally  floor mounted pedals depend solely on your strength in your ankle, while with hanging pedals you can get your whole leg into it. 
  Remember going to aftermarket pedal assemblies  deletes power brakes.  
    Whatever you do make sure you get a bias beam to balance front and rear braking 

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 4:23 p.m.

In reply to nocones :

no dash bar because I didn't want to have an overhead bar and worry about it on the street without a helmet. I do have sill bars running to the front of the body though. So bracing something to that and the trans tunnel for support should be a solid setup. 

Frenchyd: That was another thought I had. This car is already a PITA to bleed brakes every spring when the master gets air in it from being drained. It sits a big angle and has to be extensively bench bled at all angles to get it to work. But its a good setup that works. For sure if I go to dual masters it'll be getting a balance bar setup.

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/26/22 4:54 p.m.

I had one more pedal-spacer-ish idea that avoids pretty much all of the problems of pedal spacers: Make your pedal hangers adjustable. I imagine this would involve cutting the hangers, welding some plates with many adjustment holes to the hangers, and then drilling holes on the pedal side of the hangers to attach them to the adjustment plates. These should minimize any feel and geometry changes from moving the pedals along with sticking to the original pedals.

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 5:09 p.m.

Here's what I'm looking at for exit room. Where I currently drive at

Vs where I could move the seat to. 6" further back (my chest to the steering wheel) which opens up an additional 96sqin of exit window.

The current tough spot is the wheel to seat distance. I'm not a large person by any means but I haven't been a toothpick since college.

Current pedal mounting.

And this what I happen to have but mounting would take some figuring out. Then there's the throttle to do.

Shavarsh
Shavarsh HalfDork
9/26/22 5:18 p.m.

Can you shorten the steering column and have a long spacer on the steering wheel side of a quick release?

rustomatic
rustomatic HalfDork
9/26/22 5:28 p.m.

It looks like you're up to a whole 'nother level of fabrication with this brake thing.  Speedway sells a handy thick-ass plate that comes with three pre-drilled holes for masters (two for brake/one for clutch).  It of course will require something substantial to weld to.  That will lead you down the rabbit hole of proper master sizing, which is hard, however there are some brake geniuses here who could help.  FrenchyD above made the excellent point of the matter of pedal leverage above, which becomes a real thing when sciencing out master sizes--best source ever on this topic is a video by Busted Knuckle on YouTube.  Buena suerte!

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/26/22 5:36 p.m.

In reply to Asphalt_Gundam :

Reread my post I only partially finished the first go around.  

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 5:37 p.m.

In reply to Shavarsh :

That would tough I think. Factory colum and it still has all the blinker and wiper control guts. Bare minimum everything would have to move back the thickness of a quick release. Which has at the point of just going for it and get as much room as I can.

 

I don't think the wilwood pedals I have are a good fit either. The masters would be sticking out through the bottom of the dash and trying to occupy where the steering column is now. 

Rustomatic: that's a rabbit hole for sure. I know what I have but that's out the window with a full revamp of the system. Not against it... would just have to be planned for.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/26/22 5:40 p.m.

In reply to Asphalt_Gundam :

The steering wheel on a quick disconnect is a lot easier than moving the pedals around.   
 Once that steering wheel is out of your way ( 3 seconds?)  just step out.  

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/26/22 6:45 p.m.

I greatly prefer the feel of floor pivot brake pedals, they make more ergonomic sense.  When you really need to put your leg into the brake pedal, you naturally raise your foot higher on the pedal.  With a floor mount this increases the leverage you have against the master cylinder.

Shavarsh
Shavarsh HalfDork
9/26/22 7:03 p.m.

Forgive me if this is really silly, just trying to think outside the box. Could you shorten the steering rack side of the column and push the whole assembly down farther into the dash?

Asphalt_Gundam
Asphalt_Gundam Reader
9/26/22 9:01 p.m.

In reply to Shavarsh :

I don't think so, at least not easily. Its mounted to the firewall via an odd shape flange that locates into the firewall. The other part is the inner shaft is DD where the U joint attaches but goes to a larger round right away.

Frenchyd: Yes a quick release would solve the exit problem but its going to move the steering wheel closer to the seat and force me to move the seat back and that messes up my pedal to seat distance. This is largely a IF one moves they all move situation.

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