Learn me Jeep Wranglers...

I know this is a "sports car" forum, but GRM knows all, thus I humbly request the brain trust learn me Jeep Wranglers.

The kids are mostly out of the house, and we're selling two of the six cars we own (one them being a member of the GRM holy trinity, my 86 325es).

What are the years to get, avoid, common issues, major issues, etc? I'm a manual gearbox guy, but are slushboxes livable? The wife will likely drive it as much as I do, and while she is pretty good, she doesn't like the shifting much.

Most of them seem to be the 4.0, but is the 4-cyl worth a look? Or run far away? Planning on some forest service roads type of thing, maybe a little hairier, but not hardcore off-roading. Yet. We'll see how long that lasts if I get hooked (I do love the mountains...).

We'll probably be looking to spend $6-8K. Seems like there's a lot of nice ones out there.

What says ye?

The only thing you should get is a 4.0 5-spd manual TJ. The slushboxes are 3-spd iirc, not 4-spd like the XJ.

I actually really liked shifting the manual TJ I had. Very relaxed, plenty of time to reflect on your day as you move from one gear to the next.

Just drove a couple TJ's while car shopping last week. I wish I fit better in jeeps, something about the seating position on wranglers and cherokees makes me feel cramped.

You really want the 4.0. Its possibly less bad on gas than the 4cyl since it can actually get out of its own way. YJ's had weak transmissions universally, TJ's were much better. Get a Dana 44 rear axle if you can. I'd personally look for a 2000-ish stock TJ 4.0 5spd, add a mild lift and 31's, and just drive the hell out of it.

skierd wrote: YJ's had weak transmissions universally,

Thats not totally true. They had the weak Peugeot until 89 or so, then they got the same AX15 that was used up into the 2000s on the TJ.

I have had both 4 and 6 cylinders. I currently have the 4.2 in my 89 YJ. Yeah, the 2.5 is slower but I would buy another one if it was in a clean Jeep. They are not interstate cruisers but they get along ok and come with 4.10 gears.

My advice would be to find the cleanest example of a Wrangler in your budget and start with it. While its easier to buy one with the top and doors you want already on it, those can be easily swapped later. The TJ is more liveable to most people due to its coil springs. I found the JK , which is a little out of what you were looking to spend, a dream to live with as a daily driver. I prefer YJs but that sort of makes me an oddball even in the Jeep world (They have square headlights for Pete's sake!)

One more thing-be wary of any lift kits already installed. People like to cut corners on those and there are some scary suspensions out there. Brake lines make great limiting straps! I would also turn around and walk as soon as I saw a body lift. Nothing says cheapo scary jeep like a 3 inch body lift.

Most of the highlights have been covered already.

I prefer the TJ I've driven them all, and I own a TJ. I've had my '97 TJ since late '00 and I will NEVER get rid of it.

Mine's an auto 2.5l, which as JP Magazine once put it is "the most limp wristed power train combo available in the TJ." < paraphrasing there. I've got a "lunch box" locker in the rear D35 (lock right), a modest 2" lift, and some 32x12.50 AT tires. It's taken me places I should have never been and back more times than I can count.

Were I to do it again, I'd have the 5 speed 4.0l combo. Additionally I wish I had a hard top, I'm on my second soft top, and it's ready to be replaced again, I even sprung for the $$$ Best Top Replace-A-Top when I replaced the factory one. If you don't get a hard top you at least want full steel doors. Conversation at highway speeds with half doors is next to impossible without yelling.

If you can swing it, find a Sahara for all the bells/whistles, hard top, full doors, and D44 rear end. On the other hand, a Ford 8.8" is a vastly supported extremely well documented swap.

A Rubicon would be the E36 M3 but they still hold their value quite well.

There's about Eleventybillion aftermarket companies that specialize in nothing but Jeeps, I'd dare say no other platform has similar aftermarket support.

I could go on and on. Pretty much ask a question, I'll answer it.

• Lee

YJ = 85ish?-95 square headlight Wrangler

TJ = 97-06 round headlight Wrangler

LJ = 04-06 round headlight and slightly longer body Wrangler

JK = 07-current

I owned a 80 CJ and then moved to a 97 TJ. The TJ was hands down a more comfortable and in my opinion capable Jeep. I had a 4 banger and made the mistake of lifting it. It should come with a warning label that says DO NOT lift a 4cyl TJ. That turned a very nice Jeep into a turd. After I lifted it and put 33" tires on it, I got better gas mileage around town than I did on the interstate. It was awful.

I then had a 07 JK 4 door, by far the best Jeep I ever owned. Comfortable, capable, ability to hold 4 people and everything for a weekend. It was great. The only reason I sold it was because it was financed and I didn't want to make a car payment anymore.

I am actually in the same boat as the OP, I have my Subaru Outback up for sale so that I can get back into a Jeep, and specifically back into a TJ.

As others have said the 6cyl TJ is the one to get. It will have enough power to cruise the interstate when needed, and the MPG is only one or two different than a 4cyl. But let's be honest, you don't get a Jeep for MPG. The D44 is a better rear axle, but if you aren't going to lift the Jeep and you are just going to leave it somewhat stockish tire size the D35 will be fine. And the autos in the TJ are pretty bad. We had a saying an my old Jeep club that "Friends don't let friends drive Jeeps with autos."

Of course we had another one, for Logdog that was "Friends don't let friends drive Jeeps with square headlights..."

Logdog said it. The transmission are fine, with the exception of the BA-10 in the 87-89 4.2L. The AX-15 was the manual in the Cherokee and Grand Cherokee so it's not weak. Test drive a YJ and a TJ on the same day and see if the smooth ride of the TJ is necessary for your needs or not.
The things to look out for? Rusty frames on YJ's, fenders on YJ's and TJ's, modifications performed by other owners and a leaky rear-main seal. It's not a terribly hard fix but you can use that to knock $500 off the price of the Jeep.
Oh, and for aftermarket stuff; stay away from Steel Horse. Junk.

I like the TJs a lot, I'd have to say my college roommate's 4cyl 5spd was the easiest manual transmission vehicle I've ever driven. I'd try to hold out for the 4.0, they have a good reputation of being pretty bulletproof.

As others have said, they're not amazing highway cruisers, but for everything else I really like them.

I've owned two TJs and I'm always on the lookout for another. One thing to watch out for is that '97s have a few unique parts. Nothing major, but you may run into a snag here and there if you are trying to swap in used stuff from a later Jeep.

Learn stuff here:

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/

In reply to OldGray320i:

Lots of good info here. Factory jeep with perhaps upgraded tires would do fine for forest roads and more. I'd stay away from heavily modified jeeps unless its a deal, and especially if you plan to do mostly road driving. The factory set up is more than capable.

I'd also add - look around a lot. I think a lot of asking prices are quite high for what you get in a wrangler. Some would just say they hold their resale value well.

4.0/5 sp combos in the 90's are much harder to find than in the 2000's. The base had the 5 speed/4 cyl and it seems that most of the time buyers opted for the auto with the bigger motor. The 90s 4 cyl. is adequate barely. Newer 4 cyl motors in the early 2000's (not sure of the exact year) have much more power than in the 90s.

Re-read Lee's post re hardtop/doors/motors - his though process is spot on re what do you want out of your jeep.

Crawl under any jeep you might buy and look for rust - some seem to rust a lot/quick, while others are quite solid, even with similar years/miles/exposure to salt. Frame, suspension parts, shock mounts, brake lines, pretty much anything underneath.

Dad/I have owned at least one CJ/Wrangler since the mid-70's for hunting/plowing. None had suspension mods.

My wife and I bought her Wrangler new back in '98. It's a 4.0/auto Sport. At the time we had a rule that at least one daily driver had to be an auto in case one of us messed up a knee. My truck was a stick, so Jeep is an auto.

The auto is a descendant of the old Mopar 904 automatic. Nothing wrong with that transmission short of the lack of overdrive. But with 30-31" tires and 3.07 stock gearing that's not really an issue.

As everybody else has said look for rust. Her passenger front fender is starting to blister. I'll need to do something with it in the next couple years.

Another universal Jeep rule is all Jeeps leak. The seal on the side glass of the heard top has shrunk and in a heavy driving rain it leaks. Doesn't appear to be any replacement gasket for it, but I haven't looked that hard.

When hers needed some work a couple years ago we ordered a bunch of TJ Rubicon parts from the dealer. Got the Rubi springs (about 1" taller than the stock '98 springs), wheels (16" and a little wider/less back space vs the original 15"), later mirrors (glass adjusts in the housing vs. moving the whole housing) & fender flares (a little wider than the faded originals).

When we went to the 16" wheels we needed to get some new tires. She's always been happy with the Mickey Thompson AT's, so we went with them. Went with a E-load rated tire. Yea way overkill for a Wrangler, but the size was right and options were limited in non-mudders. The stiffer carcass of the E rated tires really improved the handling without giving up any ride comfort (for a Wrangler).

The 4.0's will occasionally kill a crank position sensor. They just die, no warning. Not too hard to replace. Just buy a good replacement one. The cheap one lasted under a year. Cheap insurance, keep one in the glove box along with a 10MM socket and ratchet. Do that and you'll probably never need it.

Back when it was still under warranty it needed a steering box and an exhaust manifold. This was with the extended 100K warranty. The seal in the steering box gave out. Swapping steering boxes out is pretty straight forward, and there are some good replacement ones out if the original needs more than a seal.

The exhaust manifold is a welded tubular design. They eventually crack. The replacement probably has 70K miles or more on it and under the right conditions it makes a little noise. I'll be looking into a header and exhaust kit for it when the time comes.

The starter is starting to complain now. I have a good reman sitting on the shelf waiting for the shop lift to be available to swap it out.

My wife has said several times that she lovers her Jeep and doesn't know what she would do if it died. I pointed out that we will just rebuild it, it's a Jeep. That's what you do.

Woody wrote: Learn stuff here: http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/f9/

Cough, cough.

Start here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=228483e964f12756548d8bc44623024b&f=67

You'll eventually wind up here: http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?s=228483e964f12756548d8bc44623024b&f=10

It's an addiction, I never got far past the parts gathering phase before I moved across country. I still have most of the crap I gathered for my turd, tons, LT1, 700R4, spare t-case, etc. all collecting dust in my parents barn. Pirate4x4 will indoctrinate you, and put evil thoughts into your head. Much like this place, just not as PG.

• Lee

I know this is a "sports car" forum, but GRM knows all, thus I humbly request the brain trust learn me Jeep Wranglers.

I always tell people a Wrangler is analogous to a Miata, and they always look at me funny. But i believe it.. and id rather own a Wrangler.

Very relaxed, plenty of time to reflect on your day as you move from one gear to the next.

I have driven various AX-15 vehicles that seemed to shift completely differently. Some shifted like old full size trucks and some shifted like modern compact trucks. I will say none of them shifted like my cable shifted FWD cars.

omething about the seating position on wranglers and cherokees makes me feel cramped.

One thing to keep in mind with both the Wrangler and Cherokee is that when they were updated in ~97, they both got much thicker interior parts stuffed into the same body shells. So in either case, the newer ones are much 'nicer' but actually less roomy than the early models.

It will have enough power to cruise the interstate when needed

Should hit ~105 if you cared to. Ive driven numerous stock 4.0 vehicles up to 100, and honestly at lower speeds they're even fairly quick (but you can kiss that goodbye if you lift it or get a 3spd automatic).

leaky rear-main seal. It's not a terribly hard fix

Yeah.. unless it's IMPOSSIBLE to fix... you can do it with the trans in the car because its a 2 pc, but you cant be sure it wont leak again, because its a 2pc. And there is no repair sleeve for the 4.0 crank. So if you have one that leaks, there is a decent chance that you simply CANNOT fix it without pulling the motor/crankshaft.

As others have said, they're not amazing highway cruisers, but for everything else I really like them.

I have noticed on Wranglers and Cherokees that tires have a HUUUGE impact on highway manners. Granted, they will never be 'amazing' highway cruisers no matter what, but you can take a jeep thats almost scary on the highway and make it much more livable with a different tire choice.

I agree with most of the other points and wont retread them.

Vigo wrote:

I know this is a "sports car" forum, but GRM knows all, thus I humbly request the brain trust learn me Jeep Wranglers.

I always tell people a Wrangler is analogous to a Miata, and they always look at me funny. But i believe it.. and id rather own a Wrangler.

Couldn't agree more, that's part of the reason my wife got a Jeep...

Vigo wrote:

omething about the seating position on wranglers and cherokees makes me feel cramped.

One thing to keep in mind with both the Wrangler and Cherokee is that when they were updated in ~97, they both got much thicker interior parts stuffed into the same body shells. So in either case, the newer ones are much 'nicer' but actually less roomy than the early models.

Yup, but not in the new JKs since they're so physically larger, though those are out of reach based on price for the OP, I second the 4.0 TJ from the later 90s, my buddies have/had them and they don't stop, ever (that's a Wrangler joke btw).

In reply to OldGray320i: This all applies to the TJ

Get the auto if you plan on using it offroad regularly. The ease of driving and control from the auto is a huge benefit. The 4cyl is anemic at best. The early TJ 4cyl will break the exhaust manifold bolts off the rear cylinders resulting in an exhaust leak. The 6cyl till ~2000 will crack the 1pc exhaust manifold and the only reliable fix is the 2pc design.

Rust will be the biggest indicator of what a jeep is worth. Look for rocker rust as well as frame/rear suspension rust that will sidline a fair number of TJs in salt states.

Pay more for the hardtop and doors, finding them after the fact is a PIA and will cost you vs buying a bikini top to go with the hardtop. Come Fall you'll see a lot of good deals show up on them.

I've had a 97 4cyl and 98 6cyl and theyve had a lot of plusses and minuses depending on what you want to do/expect from them

eebasist wrote: Get the auto if you plan on using it offroad regularly. The ease of driving and control from the auto is a huge benefit.

I disagree. I greatly prefer a manual transmission when wheeling, even when rock-crawling. The learning curve is steeper, but you end up with much more control. You just need quick feet.

As far as Jeeps go, they have plenty of tow hooks for me to hook my Trooper to when they get stuck.

My best friend has a 99 Wrangler with a 4.0 and a stick. Nice little car, it's stock except for 30 inch all terrains. I'd own one.

It's a dangerous path to start down, though. I bought my Trooper as a daily driver/ stuff hauler, with some occasional forest road use thrown in. One year later, it's sitting on 31" tires, has 3" of suspension lift, stiffer springs, a rear locker, a winch, lots of recovery gear, additional skid plates, a different transmission, a stronger rear driveshaft, manual hubs, and soon sliders and a roof-top-tent. I've also moved from forest roads to the roughest trails I can find around here, and occasionally make the drive up to Uwharrie, NC for some rock crawling with the other Isuzu nuts. Be prepared to spend all your time and money figuring out how to slowly drive over some stuff.

Well, first, I stand corrected on the "I know this is a sports car forum". I should have known better.... Great stuff, much appreciated.

Most of the ones we looked at/were interested in were in the mid to late 90's, so the more desireable TJ, and more than a few had some kind of lift already on them, usually stated as a 3". I didn't think she'd like the modded Jeeps, but those were the ones she liked the most. If I do something to my cars, I'm ruining them. Go figure.

Is there an "ideal" tire size (31's, 33's, etc...)? Larger and you lose some gearing, smaller and?

Anything to watch out for on lifted jeeps? I.e. misaligned drive shafts, (wheel) alignment issues? Premature wear on hard parts, gears, transfer cases? Or is a 3" lift common for a reason (i.e. any more than that and problems arise...)?

Sorry if the questions are dumb, but I'm going waaaaay back in the memory with things that are "hearsay" or that a buddy of mine experienced when he raised his '71 Bronco.

She actually talked about selling her car and daily driving a Jeep (price point goes up at that point, so the nicer JKs?). We'll see how serious she is about that.

Somebody above posted on LJs, but not a lot about them afterward - are they oddball for any reason?

Is there an "ideal" tire size (31's, 33's, etc...)? Larger and you lose some gearing, smaller and?

There are certain things in the Jeep world people will argue to death and this is one. Most Wranglers (TJ/YJ) have a Dana 35 rear. Many feel it is fine with up to a 33 inch tire. Many feel it is fine up to 31. Many feel you shouldnt leave your driveway on it. In my opinion 31s are a sweet spot before you have to worry about gearing and axle strength. There are thousands of passionate threads out there arguing this topic.

Anything to watch out for on lifted jeeps? I.e. misaligned drive shafts, (wheel) alignment issues? Premature wear on hard parts, gears, transfer cases? Or is a 3" lift common for a reason

Look for all of it. Lift kits and lowering kits are bought by many of the same types of people. They want maximum impact for no dollars. 3 inch kits are cheap but vary on quality and methods. I would avoid anything with spring spacers or kits that only replace the springs. I like to see a slip yoke eliminator and longer rear shaft on 3 inches of lift but some feel it isnt necessary. Some kits drop the transfercase to keep driveline angles intact but I think thats hokey and the better eay is the longer shaft.

She actually talked about selling her car and daily driving a Jeep (price point goes up at that point, so the nicer JKs?). We'll see how serious she is about that.

If she is thinking about using it for a DD you really should test drive a JK. Better handling, ride and more room. Interior was upgraded in 2011 and powertrain upgraded in 2012. I drove one for a year and loved it. Keep in mind many Jeep "purists" hate whatever the current production Wrangler is. When the YJ came out it was mocked for its headlights and sway bars. When the TJ came out it was hated on for its coil springs. Now with the JK its hated for being too big, having a "minivan engine" and being a favorite of soccer moms. But it is awesome!

Somebody above posted on LJs, but not a lot about them afterward - are they oddball for any reason?

They were only made the final few years and tend to be more expensive. They are the same as a TJ, just longer.

That was me on the LJ's. They aren't really oddball, they are just a little longer than a regular TJ. The rear storage area is more like that of a SUV instead of the small cubby hole you get in a TJ. I think the only other differences involve some suspension pieces but if you aren't going to lift it then it isn't an issue. Because LJ's have a longer wheel base they are rated to tow a little more than a similar TJ. My opinion the LJ's were an experiment for Jeep to see if a larger Wrangler would sell. It did and then they introduced the JK. The LJ/TJ paring is similar to the Scrambler/CJ pairing of the 80s.

As far as 3" goes, there are two different types of lift that are usually 3". The first is a body lift, which is pretty much just spacers placed between the body and the frame to lift the Jeep up. I hate these.

The second is a 3" suspension lift, these will usually involve longer coil springs, shocks, and the necessary hardware to lift the Jeep 3".

And of course there are combos of both systems which may be a 2" spacer lift on the springs and a 1" body lift to give you 3".

IIRC I think you need about 3" to run 33" tires on a TJ, so that is probably why that number is so common. Both lift systems are used in order to run larger tires on a Jeep. The larger tire you go the more items are prone to break. With some of the larger lifts, drive shaft angles are a concern but not usually with a 3" lift.

And Logdog and I really need to stop posting at the same time...

One other thing, like logdog said most 3" lifts are cheap. Something to keep in mind when riding in a lifted Jeep. And no matter what anyone says when you put cheap suspension parts on a car it affects ride quality.

Vigo wrote:

leaky rear-main seal. It's not a terribly hard fix

Yeah.. unless it's IMPOSSIBLE to fix... you can do it with the trans in the car because its a 2 pc, but you cant be sure it wont leak again, because its a 2pc. And there is no repair sleeve for the 4.0 crank. So if you have one that leaks, there is a decent chance that you simply CANNOT fix it without pulling the motor/crankshaft.

Yeah, I should have clarified. If it's been leaking for a long time (i.e. the rear diff is soaked in oil from the engine) you might not be able to stop it totally. If you have a situation like this, keep your eyes on on eBay for a NOS rear main seal that is black, NOT orange. The black seal is a bit stiffer and I've had good success sealing up long-time leaky rear-main leaks.