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wheelsmithy
wheelsmithy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/5/19 6:53 p.m.

Yep, Please move on if I'm being a pain with all my learn me threads, but...

Please enlighten me on Neon engines. Specifically, I have a line on a 2002 2.0 SOHC engine cheap. I'd like to back it with a 5-speed (NVG T-350).

I have read the transmission from a Neon, Stratus, Breeze, Avenger, Sebring, or PT Cruiser will work. 

Blah blah, challenge build, I'll check out the X19 swap on this forum, as that's exactly the plan.

Fiat Acquisition of Chrysler

Donebrokeit
Donebrokeit UltraDork
12/5/19 7:21 p.m.

It should mate-up but the clutch/flywheel might be an issues.

 

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
12/5/19 7:27 p.m.

Second gen sohc engines aint fantastic, but aint horrible either. They respond well to bolt ons, portiing and polishing. 

The neon t350 isnt a bad trans. Its not a great one, but not bad. A good shifter, good shifter bushings, and redline mtl made a world of difference. 

Expect to replace every gasket (especially head), piece of rubber, timing belt and tensioner immediately upon purchase of the drivetrain. 

 

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
12/5/19 10:01 p.m.

A sohc neon engine in an x1/9 will be fast and reliable. Sounds good to me!  

I've had 2 sohc/5spd neons and 2 sohc/5spd stratuseseses/stratii.   What do you want to know?

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
12/5/19 10:57 p.m.

There are 2 different final drive ratios

see http://forums.neons.org

Get a 2.4L motor, no substitute for cubic centimeters.

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/5/19 11:03 p.m.

Any challenge budget LSD option?

What's the best option for tuning?

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
12/5/19 11:09 p.m.

LSD is not easy but can be done.

It's covered in the Neons forum

MegaSquirt You could even do a stealth install by putting a Microsquirt Module inside a factory ECU case

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/6/19 6:42 a.m.

The single cam engines come in two flavours.  Regular, and Rt from 2000 on.  The timing belt tensioner mechanism and front engine mount are different first to second gen, but interchange ok.  The only real difference happened in 03, I think.  Might be 02.  They relocated the crank sensor and added a bunch of teeth on the reluctor wheel, so ECU has to match that.  Other than that, the ECU needs to match the intake manifold, basically.

The RT engine is 18 more horsepower, and actually works awfully well for 150 hp.  

Manual trans will all interchange.  Early twincam and second gen rt are 3.94 ratio, all others are3.55, ignoring the Euro only 4.09 ratio.

Automatics are all tied to the ECU.  3 speed to 02, then a couple different od boxes.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/6/19 6:45 a.m.

Also, all but the 95 use a modular clutch mounted to a flex plate.  Mechanical clutch cable to 00, hydraulic after.  Cable feels better, but the hydro would be way better for your swap.  PT Cruiser is hydraulic as well. 

You are looking for a 01 or newer rt box, basically.

Edit:  I have broken two of the New Venture gearboxes in a dozen years of racing.  One, in my road race car, didn't survive the crankshaft breaking, and hanging one piston and a flywheel off the input shaft.  One, in my stock car, didn't appreciate when I got a bunch of air coming off somebody, and landed at full throttle in third gear.  I don't blame the gearbox for either.

The SRT box is much sturdier, completely different, and the PT/GT turbo box is yet another one.  I think searching for either would be expensive overkill.

Duke
Duke MegaDork
12/6/19 8:44 a.m.

If you can source a 2.4 instead of the 2.0, it makes similar horsepower but a lot more torque, and the block is only 1" taller.

 

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
12/6/19 8:59 a.m.

I found the 2.4 dihc swap in my r/t to not be as fun as the 2.0 dohc in the acr. Just wasnt as livly. It was torquier, and fadter, but not funner.

Stefan
Stefan MegaDork
12/6/19 9:15 a.m.

I believe OBX makes a less expensive limited slip for the Neon boxes.  It's a Quaiffe knock-off and other than assembly issues, it seems to work.

It would still be hard to fit under Challenge budgeting.  Other than the SRT4, there aren't any factory options, so you'll be left with a Phantom Grip or the Miller Welder versions.

eastsideTim
eastsideTim UberDork
12/6/19 1:38 p.m.

I don’t remember all the gear ratio information (I’m sure the details are on neons.org), but a first gen DOHC Sport should have the 3.94 final drive, and the higher overdrive gear, so it’s a good blend of performance and highway drive ability.  Can’t remember if the RT had that trans or if it had the one from the ACR with a lower fifth gear.

If you do track down a limited slip, I think I still have a bunch of shims for a T-350.

 

enginenerd
enginenerd Reader
12/6/19 2:14 p.m.

Yup first gen manual was 3.55 or 3.94. The RT and ACR had a 3.94. There were also some changes to the 5th gear ratio. 

Limited slip options are generally used Quaife or OBX. Modern Performance recently released their own but probably out of challenge budget. I'd avoid Phantom Grip. 

 

 

wheelsmithy
wheelsmithy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/6/19 2:22 p.m.

Great responses everyone. Thank You All.

Michael answered one of my main questions: "Replace every seal on it before dropping it in anything"

Seller's ad says this 02 wouldn't go in his 03 chassis due to crank sensor differences-good call, Streetwiseguy.

I agree there are better choices, but this engine is local, and available. Supposed to be a good 115k runner. In the picture, I saw a flexplate, so the guy may have a transmission (no deal if auto).

For the challenge, I'm accepting the idea of no LSD, but would like the option afterward-not to mention, SRT-4/PTGT.

So, specifically, I was asking for known Achillies heels, weights, Transmissions (answered).

 Are they interference?

Anybody Mega/Microsquirted one?

What low hanging fruit is there (Thanks for Port/polish info, Michael.

How wide is the engine/trans (how far apart are Neon frame rails?

What type of valve adjustment?

Do auto axles fit a standard transmission.

Anything I should know if I'm considering this nonsense?

I appreciate anyone still reading, and ready to help after that barrage, but those are my questions.

 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/6/19 3:27 p.m.
wheelsmithy said:

Great responses everyone. Thank You All.

Michael answered one of my main questions: "Replace every seal on it before dropping it in anything"

Seller's ad says this 02 wouldn't go in his 03 chassis due to crank sensor differences-good call, Streetwiseguy.

I agree there are better choices, but this engine is local, and available. Supposed to be a good 115k runner. In the picture, I saw a flexplate, so the guy may have a transmission (no deal if auto).

For the challenge, I'm accepting the idea of no LSD, but would like the option afterward-not to mention, SRT-4/PTGT.

So, specifically, I was asking for known Achillies heels, weights, Transmissions (answered).

 Are they interference?  Yes.

Anybody Mega/Microsquirted one?  Not me.

What low hanging fruit is there (Thanks for Port/polish info, Michael.  Fudge the cam timing by slotting the water pump mounting holes, Mismatch Dohc and Sohc pistons, I think.  Second gen R/T head, 95 camshaft.

How wide is the engine/trans (how far apart are Neon frame rails?  Just a touch over three feet.

What type of valve adjustment?  hydraulic.

Do auto axles fit a standard transmission.  I think the spline is the same, but the depth is wrong on one side, anyway.

Anything I should know if I'm considering this nonsense? You should be able to find a beat up twincam Neon parts car for very little money to get ecu/harness/bits and pieces.  Or, even better, a beat up RT second gen car will give you the hydraulic clutch and trans.

I appreciate anyone still reading, and ready to help after that barrage, but those are my questions.

 

 

wheelsmithy
wheelsmithy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/6/19 6:16 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

danke schoen! 

Great info. I had a second to look around. Engine gasket kits around 90-150 bucks. Cheap headers, clutch, flywheel, etc.

Torque to yield head bolts.

Cast iron block, aluminum head. Hydraulic lifters are nice.

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
12/6/19 6:26 p.m.

Im a first gen guy, and tend to stay in the dohc camp. Because acr....

 

Regardless: pretty sure i have an extra trans here for you. Its a 3.55, not a 3.94. Sorry....

Also pretty sure i have a used clutch or two, flexplate, starter....

And a complete dohc top end/header or two.

All 1st gen. Ill let streetwise say wether itll wirk with a second fen engine, but ill make damn sure the price is right.

wheelsmithy
wheelsmithy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/6/19 6:49 p.m.

Aww shucks, Michael, that sounds great. I'll get back to you.

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/6/19 7:51 p.m.

I've raced the hell out of twincams with a rebuild consisting of a fresh set of pistons.  The rotating assembly is very sturdy. 

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
12/6/19 9:14 p.m.

If you are making stockish torque the modular clutch is the best thing ever. Forget trying to line up the input shaft with the clutch splines. Just smack the trans onto the engine dowels and start bolting, just like an auto.  You also don't have to seperate the engine and trans as far from each other because the flexplate is shallower than a flywheel. Does preclude the use of an actual lightweight flywheel, though. 

 

I actually think you should seek out the 3.55 trans. With an x1/9 you'll have a very short tire size and the taller ratio will help keep highway rpms tolerable, which is one of the x1/9s major failings as a street car in my opinion.  I had both in my neons and while the 3.94 was an acceleration advantage, a 3.55 x1/9 would be faster than a 3.94 neon anyway and might have the same overall effective ratio due to the shorter tire.

 

OBX used to make a cheap helical diff for the neon trans. I have one in my 5spd Caravan (whose trans the t350 is a descendant of). I think they're a bit harder to find now. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
12/6/19 9:29 p.m.

This would be what I'd search for.  F code means RT single cam.  Nipawin is likely a very, very long drive...

https://www.sgi.sk.ca/lcgi/salvage_bid_site/comp_details.cgi?stock_num=Y192160&store=Yorkton

Minimum bid is $150, and I bet a guy would get it for that, or not much more.  Gotta be some like this one in your part of the world.  That would be a frickin rocket in the back of an X1/9.

This one, you would need to use the ecu, cluster and ignition switch to keep it going without bypassing security somehow.  99 and older, no security in any of them.

wheelsmithy
wheelsmithy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/7/19 8:11 a.m.

Vigo, My thoughts exactly on final drive. In a sub 2k car, give it legs. Also, 6500 rpm redline.

Streetwiseguy, that is indeed sweet, if way too distant for my situation. 

Again, interesting stuff on flexplate with manual. Weird.

Just zeroing in on this platform as a cheap/available/plentiful option is cool. I don't suppose I gave it a fair shake in the past, but am definitely coming around. Let's see what I can turn up.

wheelsmithy
wheelsmithy GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
12/7/19 9:13 a.m.

Whelp, a local salvage yard has this for $900+tax

Here's the thing about that:

200k miles 5 speed PT GT. It was obviously running when it got hit. What do you guys think? It is at the ragged edge of my challenge budget, and I don't think these things are exactly ripe for recoup. However, it seems doable, and this would make the car a potential contender. It has some value in scrap metal.

Dusterbd13-michael
Dusterbd13-michael MegaDork
12/7/19 10:09 a.m.

Tax dont count. So its 900.

Id say do it. Check the oil, look over the drivetrain best you can. 

Use the full wiring harness and computer. See if you can use the front cradle as rear suspension, etc. Essentially treat it as a pt cruiser being rebodied into an x19. Should be pretty doable for budget. Good brakes too.

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