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vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/28/21 7:36 p.m.

Was looking at this to eliminate the CIS on my Scirocco 16v 2.0. I have a new fuel rail and injectors. I'd need a TPS, crank position sensor of some kind, coolant temp, and GM MAP sensor. I'm looking for a simple way to upgrade the FI. I think this would meet my needs. I'm not going turbo. Ignition is handled by VW standalone. Thoughts? 

https://www.diyautotune.com/product/microsquirt-engine-management-system-w-8-39-wiring-harness/#

 

NorseDave
NorseDave Reader
7/28/21 9:24 p.m.

It can work great, but it's not for the faint of heart.  You don't need a crank sensor btw to do a fuel-only setup, you can use the tach signal or the coil to get the engine speed.  I have a fuel-only setup on my Merc 190E, same deal, get rid of the CIS.  You'll also need a wideband O2 in order to tune and an intake air temp sensor if the Scirocco doesn't have one. 

One note on the tach / coil solution - the MicroSquirt does NOT handle the coil option well in my experience.  Despite the manual saying you can do it, I blew out this circuit on 2 MicroSquirts in about 2 min of run time each.  I then switched to using the signal that feeds the tach and it works perfectly, 18 months later.  I got an email a few weeks ago about the new "AMP'd MicroSquirt" with "improved optoisolated RPM input circuit" which sounds exactly like what the MS I have didn't have. 

I have a thread over in the Builds and Project Cars section on it.  That I should probably update.

Rocambolesque
Rocambolesque Reader
7/28/21 9:56 p.m.

Not for the faint of heart, but you'll learn a lot. Once setup, it's good. I'd say do the ignition at the same time, you'll probably have to double up on some sensors if you do fuel only. The biggest gains are in the ignition map.

bentwrench
bentwrench SuperDork
7/28/21 11:17 p.m.

MS is not any tougher than other EFI systems, in many ways it is better!

I would use an MS2 v3.0 as a microsquirt does not support the full MS2 feature set.

Also a microsquirt is not very flexable configuration wise.

I would run the ignition too with either system because you get true load based spark control rather than a flat RPM curve. You will see improvements in mileage and NA power with 3D mapping. It is hardly any more difficult to do ignition than it is to configure the fuel only triggering. Which on some models is problematic. This also enables the MS features that wont work (well) without ignition control.

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/29/21 12:31 a.m.

I'd not go microsquirt, but go regular MegaSquirt.

You get more I/O and less headaches regarding connectors or wiring.

I ran my ITB'd Porsche 924 2.0L on an MS1 w/extra code and converted it to run Ford EDIS ignition.  Was my DD for a few years before I had kids.  So an MS2 is sufficient to replace CIS and provide some ability to grow with lots of already available support.

The Extra code is worth it and their documentation is much, much better.

your car is probably one of the easiest to convert.  Do it.  Post here with your trials and tribulations.  We'll help you through it.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/29/21 6:02 a.m.

In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :

This isn't a flippant question, as I've been considering a Microsquirt for my Alfa.

What expansion does a normal MS offer over Micro that I would use?  Even for the code.

When I read the Micro set up, that look exactly what I would need- and I have no reason to expand it that I can think of.

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/29/21 8:28 a.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :

This isn't a flippant question, as I've been considering a Microsquirt for my Alfa.

What expansion does a normal MS offer over Micro that I would use?  Even for the code.

When I read the Micro set up, that look exactly what I would need- and I have no reason to expand it that I can think of.

I have the same reaction. I am not interested in expanding beyond what I have. I just want a more modern way to control the fueling and reliability. The VW ignition works real well on its own.

 

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
7/29/21 8:44 a.m.
alfadriver said:

In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :

This isn't a flippant question, as I've been considering a Microsquirt for my Alfa.

What expansion does a normal MS offer over Micro that I would use?  Even for the code.

When I read the Micro set up, that look exactly what I would need- and I have no reason to expand it that I can think of.

The main things a "full size" MS2 has over the MicroSquirt are the stepper IAC driver and the low impedance injector drivers. And if you are modifying the box, you can get one or two more I/O channels out of a fully reworked MS2 versus a MicroSquirt - but if you don't need the stepper IAC driver, a MicroSquirt will have more I/O brought out than a "standard" MS2 build.

Also, an MS2 can be upgraded to an MS3 by swapping its daughter card; the MicroSquirt does not have an upgrade path to MS3.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/29/21 9:30 a.m.

In reply to MadScientistMatt :

I don't have a path to install a stepper IAC- and getting injectors that match isn't that hard.

Not sure how the extra I/O helps.

How is upgrading the module helpful?  Are they not robust enough to survive?  What makes MS3 so much better for a simple set up?

Unless I do some special manifold, I have to run alpha-N, as my ITBs makes speed-density hard.  And I don't plan on adding a MAF sensor (even though the Micro can deal with that).  So I have throttle, air temp, water temp, and probably BP input, engine speed, and probably a UEGO.  Idle will be tough- but it would be replacing a slow moving throttle stop.

For a speed input, I would probably just find a different pulley, and modify the fuel pump pulley to miss a tooth.

I would bet the VW would be different that it could use a MAP sensor.  But other than that, it would be the same.

So the pre-assembled Micro seems like a pretty solid fit.

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/29/21 10:29 a.m.

Here's some info on the various versions:

https://www.msextra.com/product-range/traditional-megasquirt/

Basically, MS3 with MS3X provides faster processing speeds, sequential fueling/spark up to v8's, more support for OEM trigger options, on-board SD Card logging and serial to USB adapter.

Starting with MS2, CAN-BUS support is provided which allows more flexibility for logging/dash support, etc.  You can add sequential fuel and spark support with add-on boards and different firmware.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
7/29/21 10:33 a.m.

Yes, the regular MicroSquirt would work just fine for what you're planning. It's often possible to plumb an IAC valve to a vacuum manifold for idle control on ITBs.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/29/21 11:38 a.m.
Stefan (Forum Supporter) said:

Here's some info on the various versions:

https://www.msextra.com/product-range/traditional-megasquirt/

Basically, MS3 with MS3X provides faster processing speeds, sequential fueling/spark up to v8's, more support for OEM trigger options, on-board SD Card logging and serial to USB adapter.

Starting with MS2, CAN-BUS support is provided which allows more flexibility for logging/dash support, etc.  You can add sequential fuel and spark support with add-on boards and different firmware.

I have seen that.  But someone needs to explain how that makes a simple CIS ACVW motor before suggesting that someone takes that step- or in my case, a SPICA Alfa Nord motor.

How would all of those additions help vwcorvette or myself?  Would either of us notice the difference between a Micro and an MS3?  I'm also assuming that the VW won't be changing the dash- I know I would not be.  

I'm not trying to be difficult- it's just that many times a MS subject comes up, the greater power of the MS3 always comes up without a strong explanation why it's so much better for a simple 4 cyl engine.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/29/21 11:40 a.m.
MadScientistMatt said:

Yes, the regular MicroSquirt would work just fine for what you're planning. It's often possible to plumb an IAC valve to a vacuum manifold for idle control on ITBs.

If I were ever to do it, my goal would to make it look exactly like the SPICA set up.  Maybe I could hide an idle control valve in my air cleaner box....

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/29/21 11:59 a.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

Go back to my original post, I did ITB's with an MS1 controlling the distributorless ignition as well on a VW 4-cylinder that previously had CIS.  It worked great.

I only suggested moving to MS2 to have more cells to tune with as well as better ongoing support and a faster processor making logging and tuning a bit easier.

MS3 is faster yet and provides onboard logging and being newer, the support is going to last longer than MS2 support will.

I was wrong about the I/O differences between the Micro and standard MS2, so my apologies there.

To get back to your question, for you and the OP?  MS1 would work just fine and there's tons of documentation available on it.  You can't actually get them anymore, so that leaves the MS2-based options.  MS2 is an evolution of the MS1 making it easier to use and tune with due to the improved firmware and hardware options. 

Digital dashes and the like are nice things to have for those that want them and there are options to do that with everything from MS1-up, but that isn't for everyone.

My previous post was merely pointing out the things you can get with MS3, not saying you should go that route.  I was merely trying to provide information so you and others could make an informed decision with their own money and time.

I think I'm done trying to help now.  Have a good day and good luck.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/29/21 12:13 p.m.

In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :

So Micro is more MS1 than 2?  

I was more interested in the Micro since it's a completed set up for a cheap price.  

Sorry that you think this is some kind of personal thing- I *honestly* don't see that big of differences that make the upgrades that massive.  That's all.  If I had a V8, or wanted some more advanced features, or even wanted some kind of CAN bus in my car- that would be a massively different story.

If you told me that Micro was not capable of good interpolation- that would make a massive difference.   

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/29/21 12:48 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

It feels personal because you fail to read the information provided and spout off about previous conversations on this subject without looking at the data being presented to you in the present.

Do as you please with your projects and I hope the OP decides to go forward with converting their CIS equipped car to whatever form of EFI they feel works best for them.

Good day.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
7/29/21 1:19 p.m.

In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :

When I read that, I not seeing how Microsquirt is not a good choice.  

"Fuel and spark are more precise" - but in what way?   Both have 16x16 fuel tables and while interpolation is bragged about in MS3, I had been under the impression that interpolation was part of MS2 as well.  And a 12x12 spark table would be a massive upgrade from a non-vacuum advance distributor. 

I get the more OEM trigger options, but for both engines, there isn't a trigger.

And when you shop for a Micro- you find this Amped up one- https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ampd-microsquirt/ that has increased capabilities.  Some of which seem to be shortcomings of the Micro.

None of those questions are being answered.  Just "read the board" and figure it out.  

Many times when I've seen upgrades in module capability- it's quickly taken up by odd reasons, especially poor auto code that takes up a lot of space.  Or MASSIVE code to make up for hardware limitations (not module, but actual cast metal part limitations).  So forgive me for asking what the realistic benefits are.  

 

NorseDave
NorseDave Reader
7/29/21 1:48 p.m.
alfadriver said:

And when you shop for a Micro- you find this Amped up one- https://www.diyautotune.com/product/ampd-microsquirt/ that has increased capabilities.  Some of which seem to be shortcomings of the Micro.

See paragraph #2 of post #2... 

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/29/21 3:13 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver :

Thank you for asking the questions I wasn't sure I was asking correctly. I am looking at money versus long term reliability. I'm not making crazy horsepower; will not be upgrading to turbos, blowers, or NOS; keeping the OEM IP, and will rely on the Bosch ignition already on the vehicle. So the upgraded Micro is not a concern where controlling coils is. Does this make sense? Seems like we're both on the same page. And I've dealt with SPICA in a former life as a European tech at a small shop here in Vermont. Fin. Ick. Eee.

MadScientistMatt
MadScientistMatt UltimaDork
7/29/21 3:41 p.m.

Yeah, on a four cylinder with the Micro running ignition control, the regular version will do fine.

jimbbski
jimbbski SuperDork
7/29/21 4:09 p.m.

I have a friend who designs "Do it yourself" EFI systems. He is currently working on a system to replace CIS.  I am helping him by answering questions about how CIS works, etc. Here's his website: rusefi.com - Index page

He also has a number of video's posted at YouTube. 

Stefan (Forum Supporter)
Stefan (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
7/29/21 5:36 p.m.

In reply to jimbbski :

UT-CIS also has some products to help modernize CIS:

https://unwiredtools.com/

That said, for the OP:

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tech/install/volkswagen/megasquirt-your-water-cooled/

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
7/30/21 6:47 a.m.

We do a lot of Cis conversions on micro. We sell packages including with support as well. There really isn't much upside to a ms2 v3 or v3.57 as Matt has said. Sure you could add a few things but most that would add those things would bw better off with a ms3/3x or a Pro off the bat. 

The hardest part is the fuel rail, injector cups, fpr on a 16v conversion. We used abf stuff a few times but hard to get upgraded injectors, etc. 

vwcorvette (Forum Supporter)
vwcorvette (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
7/30/21 10:35 a.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

We do a lot of Cis conversions on micro. We sell packages including with support as well. There really isn't much upside to a ms2 v3 or v3.57 as Matt has said. Sure you could add a few things but most that would add those things would bw better off with a ms3/3x or a Pro off the bat. 

The hardest part is the fuel rail, injector cups, fpr on a 16v conversion. We used abf stuff a few times but hard to get upgraded injectors, etc. 

Learn me more about your kits. Injector cups are just digifant cups to replace the CIS cups in the head. I picked up a fuel rail, fpr, and injectors used. 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
7/30/21 11:24 a.m.

We mostly do pnp for the Motronic and digi cars. If you want to use one of those oem harnesses we do a plug in adapter. If you want to do more diy its $530 for the micro, usb, 3bar map, map connector, gm air temp, 1k pullup for the hall sensor and 8' harness. Includes 1hr of support on top. 

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