I do HPDE probably once a month, and get around pretty well in my turbo Miata. I drive with a race seat, six point harness, HANS, fire suit, etc. and enjoy the peace of mind that comes with proper safety equipment.
I'm pretty impressed with some of the new cars I see at track days; the GT350, Camaro SS 1LE, Z06, Cayman S, etc. They seem to be cars that can be comfortable daily drivers, and still kick a bunch of ass at the track without too many headaches. I can see myself stepping up to something nicer in the next few years.
My question is this. Most of them have "sport" seats with passthroughs for shoulder harness straps, but aren't too big of a PITA for daily duty. What I don't see is harness bars or mounting points for sub straps. The guys I see driving them at the track seem comfortable with the stock 3 point seatbelts, but can't see myself doing 160mph down the back straight at Road Atlanta in a Vette with a stock 3 point when I'm used to doing 120mph in a Miata with full safety. What are the options here? Is it possible to install "real" safety with those stock seats, or do you need to rip them out and go to a full safety setup, and accept the compromises to comfort/practicality for daily driver duty?
It all depends on your tolerance for risk. Personally, I've gotten to the point where I don't want to drive a car on the track unless it has full racecar-style safety, including a cage. That's why, when moving on from my dual-purpose street/track turbo Miata, I went with an E46 M3 instead of something newer and faster. I'm willing to gut & cage an E46, but not a GT350/etc.
codrus said:
It all depends on your tolerance for risk. Personally, I've gotten to the point where I don't want to drive a car on the track unless it has full racecar-style safety, including a cage. That's why, when moving on from my dual-purpose street/track turbo Miata, I went with an E46 M3 instead of something newer and faster. I'm willing to gut & cage an E46, but not a GT350/etc.
I agree with you. I decided to sell my Miata with the roll bar, big brakes, harness and seat, etc. and just do autocross.
I stopped tracking my V wagon because it was too fast for three point belts. Word on the street is that some sanctioning bodies will allow a harness bar in corvettes because the factory roll structure is strong enough. Other than that I want to see a half cage/roll bar at least if I want harnesses. I've also chosen track cars that have a maximum speed below 120mph on track.
So are the shoulder belt passthroughs on the factory seats in these cars just for show, or is there a way to install a proper 6 point harness with them? I could probably get right with a six point and HANS device in a modern hardtop car with airbags etc., but if I have to rip the interior out to accomplish that I might as well just stay with the Miata.
In reply to ShinnyGroove :
In all the decades I raced safety equipment got more complex and expensive. Is that what kept me out of trouble, or was it better and better preparation?
I've never been comfortable with the idea of tracking my Cayman without a roll bar. My first one had a harness bar for autocross, but I didn't want to go on track with it. The bolt-in roll bar for the Cayman is a couple thousand dollars. It's a small market. Don't expect to add one for Hard Dog money.
My friend has a '15 Mustang GT with a Schroth harness that mounts to the factory seat belt receptacle on one side in the rear and the factory mount point on the other side. I checked it out and thought it was a reasonable compromise for a dual duty car (he runs the stock 3pt belt on the street, and typically does 1-2 track events per year). He was able to install the whole setup in well under 5 min, which I thought was pretty quick. He knows the pros and cons of his setup and is comfortable with them.
Part of the reason I don't do any track work (aside from my time and budget limitations) is that I wouldn't do it without a full cage, fixed back seat, HANS, fire suppression, etc.
frenchyd said:
In reply to ShinnyGroove :
In all the decades I raced safety equipment got more complex and expensive. Is that what kept me out of trouble, or was it better and better preparation?
I don’t think I’m getting your point. Would you mind elaborating?
dj06482 said:
My friend has a '15 Mustang GT with a Schroth harness that mounts to the factory seat belt receptacle on one side in the rear and the factory mount point on the other side. I checked it out and thought it was a reasonable compromise for a dual duty car (he runs the stock 3pt belt on the street, and typically does 1-2 track events per year). He was able to install the whole setup in well under 5 min, which I thought was pretty quick. He knows the pros and cons of his setup and is comfortable with them.
Part of the reason I don't do any track work (aside from my time and budget limitations) is that I wouldn't do it without a full cage, fixed back seat, HANS, fire suppression, etc.
So he runs with a four point harness then, no sub straps? I may not be fully up to speed, but those are notoriously dangerous. I would definitely want a five or six point harness.
I may be misunderstanding but for a six point harness isn't the seat base going to be a problem?
Depending what motor is in my car it'll do between 95-110; I too have a full cage, HANS device and all the rest.
I've driven faster in non caged cars but I also leave plenty of margin when doing so. If you're going to be driving flat out, regardless of whether the car will do 85 or a 185, then a full cage is the way to go.
ShinnyGroove said:
frenchyd said:
In reply to ShinnyGroove :
In all the decades I raced safety equipment got more complex and expensive. Is that what kept me out of trouble, or was it better and better preparation?
I don’t think I’m getting your point. Would you mind elaborating?
Is it completely necessary to have all the current safety gear just to drive your “street” car on the race track? That’s a personal decision and I think more dependent on the track than on the car.
Some tracks allow even high powered street cars to their full potential. If you have a serious event at 170+ MPH at a track like Elkhart Lake then yes even I would want a full set of safety gear. But a lot of tracks really restrict your speed by short straights and tight corners.
There I’d accept the factory safety equipment. Unless the track is laid out in such a way that there are big solid things to hit close to the track. Even there I might run using diligence in those marginally safe areas.
Remember, the driver controls the car. Nothing wrong with treating an area with respect and lifting or failing to push in certain areas.
Tom1200 said:
I may be misunderstanding but for a six point harness isn't the seat base going to be a problem?
Depending what motor is in my car it'll do between 95-110; I too have a full cage, HANS device and all the rest.
I've driven faster in non caged cars but I also leave plenty of margin when doing so. If you're going to be driving flat out, regardless of whether the car will do 85 or a 185, then a full cage is the way to go.
Modern crash tested cars are a lot safer than some of our vintage cars are even with a rollcage.
I'd probably do a bolt-in 4 point. Then swap seats when going to do an event.
And if you don't want to drill holes in the floorpan for belts, or modify interior pieces to fit around the rollbar, probably best to stay with a dedicated track car that isn't $45k+
In reply to z31maniac :
SCCA allows completely stock cars on their track day events. Knowing how safety conscience they are, I think that putting any higher standard as the price of entry will be an obstacle to the increase participation needed to keep sports car racing viable.
Can stuff be added? Sure but let’s make sure they are properly addicted to our hobby first. Comments about first hit free from drug dealers comes to mind about now. ( silly grin )
frenchyd said:
In reply to z31maniac :
SCCA allows completely stock cars on their track day events. Knowing how safety conscience they are, I think that putting any higher standard as the price of entry will be an obstacle to the increase participation needed to keep sports car racing viable.
Can stuff be added? Sure but let’s make sure they are properly addicted to our hobby first. Comments about first hit free from drug dealers comes to mind about now. ( silly grin )
Yes, I know that. But the point of his post was asking about safety equipment in a newer car.
And I relayed what I would do. After getting hurt at the track when I still rode sportbikes, I take safety very seriously. Even my 1.6 Miata, I didn't go to the track until it had a rollbar, FIA fixed-back seats, and harnesses. That's me and my acceptable level of risk.
My local track will let you take a convertible out on Hoosiers, with no rollbar, if that's what you feel comfortable doing. I would never, but that is up to each person to determine what level of risk they can handle.
STM317
UltraDork
5/21/19 8:18 a.m.
I'm no track rat, but is there any truth to this older article?
It seems logical to me that adding a bar or cage into a modern street car could require removing pillar/side curtain airbags. And then your head is free to bang around on that new bar in the event of an accident. On track, you'd have a helmet on to protect your head from those impacts, but if you were in a crash on the street you or your passengers won't be wearing helmets. It's at least worth discussing I think even if it's not much of a concern.
In reply to STM317 :
That plays into the idea that if you have a cage and it's possible for your head to hit any part of it while you're strapped in, the car should only be driven with a helmet on (even on the street).
What do you guys think about speed limits for HPDE?
I.E... Yes, your new Mustang/ Camaro/ Challenger/ Vette/ Porsche/ BMW/ Audi / AMG can hit ungodly speeds on the long back straight at Road Atlanta, but is that really teaching you anything you wouldn't learn at a lower speed? Or are you just looking for a trap speed or lap time to brag about? How do you think the instructor in your passenger seat feels about that?
STM317 said:
I'm no track rat, but is there any truth to this older article?
It seems logical to me that adding a bar or cage into a modern street car could require removing pillar/side curtain airbags. And then your head is free to bang around on that new bar in the event of an accident. On track, you'd have a helmet on to protect your head from those impacts, but if you were in a crash on the street you or your passengers won't be wearing helmets. It's at least worth discussing I think even if it's not much of a concern.
This is why it's important to talk about specific items and use the appropriate terms. There is a large difference between a 4-pt roll bar and a cage.
In my Miata, I had no qualms about driving it on the street with the roll bar, seats, harnesses. If my head hit to the roll bar, that would have meant the impact was great enough to make the FIA-cert seat fail and somehow move from behind my head to allow a hit to the roll bar. IE, roll bar or not wouldn't have mattered.
A roll cage on the other hand, adds the tube across the top of the door frame and down the A-pillar. A sideways hit could easily send your head into that. And remember that "rollbar padding" is still meant for a helmet and not your bare head.
STM317 said:
I'm no track rat, but is there any truth to this older article?
It seems logical to me that adding a bar or cage into a modern street car could require removing pillar/side curtain airbags. And then your head is free to bang around on that new bar in the event of an accident. On track, you'd have a helmet on to protect your head from those impacts, but if you were in a crash on the street you or your passengers won't be wearing helmets. It's at least worth discussing I think even if it's not much of a concern.
rslifkin said:
In reply to STM317 :
That plays into the idea that if you have a cage and it's possible for your head to hit any part of it while you're strapped in, the car should only be driven with a helmet on (even on the street).
All correct. You should not use anything beyond a 3pt belt in a car that doesn't have a roll cage, and if your head can hit a cage bar when you're strapped in, then the car should never be driven without a helmet (often a problem with dual-duty cars running a cage and hoping for multiple harness options...you might have to lose the 3pt and run the racing harness at all times).
Also, IMO the 5pt belt should now be considered obsolete, a 6/7pt is far more comfortable and far less harmful to your junk in a crash.
Short answer is no you cannot do "real" safety with those seats, that being said it seems I'm seeing more newer corvettes (and other cars) getting wrecked at track days. These cars get to the hairy limit quickly and it is difficult to judge how slow you need to go into a turn (I've waved at folks from the beach waiting on a tow truck before, I'm not special in that regards either). I don't know about mandatory speed limits at track days but I think a real discussion should be had about limiting speed/acceleration until some beginner groups have passed a certain point. I tell people, although I get a lot of disbelief, that I don't normally try to drive my car as fast as it can go at track days, it is a street car with limited safety equipment, pushing it faster can wait until I'm ready to commit to a full build with requisite safety gear.
- In reply to dclafleur :
- Events like these are designed to feed the need, the need for speed . (“Top Gun”) Entry level to go wheel to wheel racing is well over what most people are willing to spend to find out if they like it or not.
- Cars can get wrecked and that’s the price you pay if your not capable of handling your car. But that doesn’t mean the drivers are dead or even seriously injured.
Modern cars will absorb a lot of damage before passing it on to the driver. Add the required helmet and the point where a driver is seriously injured is pretty high. High enough that a conservative group like SCCA is ready to accept the risk.
nderwater said:
What do you guys think about speed limits for HPDE?
I.E... Yes, your new Mustang/ Camaro/ Challenger/ Vette/ Porsche/ BMW/ Audi / AMG can hit ungodly speeds on the long back straight at Road Atlanta, but is that really teaching you anything you wouldn't learn at a lower speed? Or are you just looking for a trap speed or lap time to brag about? How do you think the instructor in your passenger seat feels about that?
So we have police cars on the race track? Doesn’t that kind of defeat the purpose of a race track? I apologize if that’s too snarky, but there are people easily capable of very high speeds.
Nor can you limit a new guy to some artificial speed limit. If you do he won’t see the need to go racing. He will Just do it on the street.
nderwater said:
What do you guys think about speed limits for HPDE?
I.E... Yes, your new Mustang/ Camaro/ Challenger/ Vette/ Porsche/ BMW/ Audi / AMG can hit ungodly speeds on the long back straight at Road Atlanta, but is that really teaching you anything you wouldn't learn at a lower speed? Or are you just looking for a trap speed or lap time to brag about? How do you think the instructor in your passenger seat feels about that?
HPDE Speed Limits, and what the instructor are comfortable with are really separate. I've seen instructors make someone go to the pits, stop the session, and read them the riot act. Then go out the next session with the instructor driving the car and not the student.
Then I've personally been in the car with an instructor, where I made a mistake, dropped the right rear off, kept my foot in it, saved the car and kept going. And he just gave me a slap on the helmet the next straight and said Nice save.
