RichardSIA
RichardSIA Dork
6/23/22 2:11 p.m.

Tried the DYI forum but it appears it may take days or longer for my question to be posted. 
Just got a small windfall of $ so now is the time to buy what I need, if I only knew what that might be.

Got these components a few years ago.
MS3.0 and MS2 daughter board, power relay V1.00A, 36-1 trigger wheel and sensor.
Engine build got "Mission creep" and expensive so only now nearing completion.
SBC 327, 10.75-1 compression, AFR heads, solid lifter cam (3000-7000 RPM), and four Weber 44 IDF's.
With the Webers I have no need or desire for Fuel injection.
What I do need is solid reliable spark, so ditching the distributor.
I will also not have an engine generated vacuum source.

Originally I was going to set this up with a crank trigger and wasted spark Ford EDIS coils as the cheap/easy way out.
My engine budget and goals got away from me so the EDIS coils may no longer be good enough as I have read that they do not handle high RPM well. 
Some of the aftermarket version$ may do better?
Now looking at possible Vortec type Coil Near Plug systems.
Big issue there is that most of those coils are about $50.00 each!
But some of the OEM type are under $20.00 each.
My challenge may be mounting them without making my engine as ugly as an LS.

Guy I got the components from said he was running an SBC with it so I hope to not have to do too many mods.
Need to keep this a budget build after putting so much into the engine.

Looking for a parts list for what should work at reasonable cost, that means about $400 or less if at all possible.
If I wanted to just write a blank check I would not be using Megasquirt.
 

mjlogan
mjlogan New Reader
6/23/22 3:31 p.m.

36-1 crank trigger

LS or similar "smart" coils

Wasted spark using FET driver method (you may not need to build the circuit for MS3, I was running MS2)

You can get 2 racks of LS coils for cheap at the junkyard

Remote mount the coils and hide them if you don't like them on the valve covers

 

From my understanding, using the EDIS module was a work around from the old days of early MS.  There are better options these days for driving the coils

 

GameboyRMH
GameboyRMH GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/23/22 4:04 p.m.

Yeah EDIS is basically obsolete if you're using an MS2 or better, I ended up using 1NZ coil-on-plugs driven by the CoP drivers (logic level outputs) on the MS3X daughterboard for my 4AGE. I chose the 1NZ CoPs mainly because they fit on the engine well, there are plenty of options out there.

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/23/22 9:08 p.m.

Edis style coils will do over 100hp per hole pretty easily if you are controlling dwell and not using the edis module. 

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Dork
6/23/22 9:54 p.m.

Only expecting about 400 HP, so 50 HP per hole.
Thought I had read somewhere that EDIS became unreliable at high RPM.
This will be a 7,000 RPM engine.

Have to find my magnifying glass so that I will be able to reads the PC boards.

JMcD
JMcD New Reader
6/23/22 10:06 p.m.
mjlogan said:

36-1 crank trigger

LS or similar "smart" coils

Wasted spark using FET driver method (you may not need to build the circuit for MS3, I was running MS2)

You can get 2 racks of LS coils for cheap at the junkyard

Remote mount the coils and hide them if you don't like them on the valve covers

 

From my understanding, using the EDIS module was a work around from the old days of early MS.  There are better options these days for driving the coils

 

This. No problems with used d585 coils with wasted spark on a 7300rpm 377:

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/23/22 10:39 p.m.

I bought two racks of the big round truck coils for $40 shipped on eBay.  This way I got the connectors and a healthy chunk of harness, too.

I have seen exactly zero of the coil near plugs go bad.  The only gotcha with them is if you drive them hard for a hot spark for forced induction applications, Delphi coils will fire early as a safety measure.  I would like to say that over 3ms dwell and they will fire no matter if the ground is cut or not.  

This safety measure built into their module is probably a good chunk of why they are so reliable.  I doubt you will run into this problem with a naturally aspirated engine.

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Dork
6/24/22 1:26 a.m.

Those would look really bad screwed to my vintage finned aluminum valve covers. wink

I need to swing by the local Pick&Pull to grab some samples.
Have to figure out where to mount them.
May get some other types to look at as well.

dean1484
dean1484 GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/24/22 7:29 a.m.

Have you considered ditching all your current set up and going with a distributor type electronic ignition designed for your application?   This may limit your tuning a bit.  Another path would be a MJLite Jr controlling an EDIS based system.   How much time are you really going to run it at 7k?   While the motor may be able to go to 7k what rpm will you be primarily using the motor at?  For that matter what are you using this motor for? 
 

"back in the day" we were spinning out out 331 SBC to 8-8.5k on a distributor based ignition with no issues. It was a drag racing application. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/24/22 9:03 a.m.

In reply to dean1484 :

The beauty is that you are not limited by what can be done with mechanical and vacuum advance, or by rotor phasing.  With a V8 you can't get get much advance before the spark starts jumping to the wrong cylinder.

 

This is great if you want to be able to stabilize idle speed with timing, or have 50-odd degrees of advance under certain low load conditions, or have the timing curve inverse to the torque curve.   Can pick up some top end by adding timing past torque peak.

81cpcamaro
81cpcamaro SuperDork
6/24/22 10:41 a.m.

Since you already have the trigger wheel, here is one way to set it up.

Upgrade the V3.0 board to a MS3 daughterboard and 3x expansion card, ditch the relay board. Have the 8 spark outputs on the expansion card drive some LS coils. You can remote mount the coils to hide them. If you go with a cam sensor as well, you can run sequential spark, a cam sync distributor like this one will work: https://www.diyautotune.com/product/cam-sync-distributor/  This eliminates the cap and rotor for a cleaner look.  Otherwise go with wasted spark settings with just the trigger wheel.

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Dork
6/24/22 12:20 p.m.

Apparently MSEXTRA is a zombie site. sad

Do the LS coils require significant air flow or may I hide them under a cover?
Would not mount them on the engine.

Engine is for my 68 El Camino, Muncie M20, Jag IRS with 3.92, GV Overdrive, 'Glass tilt front clip, etc.
Goal is a replacement for the Jag XKE I foolishly sold decades ago and now cannot afford to replace.
So it's mostly a GT car that may also run a Hill Climb or the Silver State Challenge as opportunity permits.

Not the most practical DD but it is my last V8 so I intend to have what I want.

 

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Dork
6/24/22 12:32 p.m.

For packaging and expense these seem to be the simple answer.
DIY do not take phone calls so not sure what else is needed to make them work, or their RPM potential.
Pretty certain they would be wasted spark.
Could probably mount one to the firewall on each side of the engine and run custom cut ignition wires for a pretty clean look.

DIY Ign-4, $52.00 ea.

mjlogan
mjlogan New Reader
6/24/22 12:33 p.m.

I wouldn't trap them anywhere it is hot.

I had them mounted on the firewall of my last build, no issues.  You could probably tuck them down low and out of sight as long as they aren't right next to headers.

Much different application but a pic of my mounting spot.  Obviously I wasn't going for asthetics

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Dork
6/24/22 1:13 p.m.

This reminds me that I have to figure out what I am doing for inner fenders.
Front clip is intended to be a tilt for simple engine access, solid lifter cam after all. 
Do need to run inner fenders since the roads have a lot of gravel on them.
Coils do not have to be grounded so mounted to fiberglass or plastic should still work.

newrider3
newrider3 HalfDork
6/24/22 1:28 p.m.

EDIS is just so easy. And it will run in limp mode at 10deg base timing even without the MS hooked up. For someone used to distributors, it's easy to set up a spark-only setup and input a simple timing table.

If you don't like the EDIS coil packs, you can run the EDIS module with other two-wire (dumb) coils of your choice wired in wasted spark. 

We're getting ready to convert one of our race cars with EDIS6 from the Ford coil pack to coil on plug using Chrysler coils, and also planning to convert our other car from HEI to EDIS8 using the same coil packs.

These obviously wouldn't be a good shape for an SBC, but there should be two-wire coil-near-plug packs that would work.

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/24/22 4:50 p.m.
RichardSIA said:

For packaging and expense these seem to be the simple answer.
DIY do not take phone calls so not sure what else is needed to make them work, or their RPM potential.
Pretty certain they would be wasted spark.
Could probably mount one to the firewall on each side of the engine and run custom cut ignition wires for a pretty clean look.

DIY Ign-4, $52.00 ea.

To run this coil you need 4 ignition drivers in the ecu. Slighly higher output than the edis coils but you don't need it. 
I use the ls coils on my valve cover no issues getting hot. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/24/22 6:04 p.m.

The LS engines had the coils mounted under plastic covers from the factory.  Should be fine.

RichardSIA
RichardSIA Dork
6/24/22 10:37 p.m.

Had to pick up V6 Buick parts from the machine shop today.
Stopped at the Summit Racing store in Sparks.
Thought I might be able to look at various coils, and SBC heads I may need, for comparison shopping.
Nope, it seems all the old displays have/are being removed to make room for more kiddy toys, power tools that you could find at any hardware store, chemicals you can find at every auto parts store, etc.
Looks more like the cheap side of Amazon than a racing supply store.
So now the only way to get an eyeball on parts is to place an order, and wait for them to be brought to the counter.
If they are not what you want do not accept them and try again.
Slow and awkward, kind of ruins the point of making the long drive to visit the store.

Have to go back to Reno again soon.
Hopefully I will have time to stop at Pick&Pull.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/25/22 7:17 p.m.

Take a look on ebay too, lots of times full engines will still have the cop attached. 

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