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Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/8/18 5:14 p.m.
barefootskater said:

Am I the only one who thinks the Fiata is fugly? I'm not attracted to the ND but I find the Fiat downright repulsive from every angle. 

Back on topic. Having only ever been in an NA and NB I can only say that 181hp would be awesome in any of them.

My mom is currently shopping a Mercedes roadster. She really wants a BMW roadster but alas the z4 is no more. She has a really high-end eye for design, and ran an interior design business for years.

I pointed her to the Miata/fiata. The fiata was an instant no, and the Miata was a very solid maybe, especially considering it was half price. A madza dealership in Denver may have screwed the pooch on that though, as their very poorly handled test drive experience left my parents with a bad taste for Mazda in general. 

I keep asking for her to drive out to Grand Junction with me, but she is hesitant.

wspohn
wspohn Dork
3/8/18 6:05 p.m.

Just curious. The power steering on the Miata has never impressed me in terms of feel. Has that improved with the current models?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/8/18 6:47 p.m.

Have to be careful here, there are four different power steering setups in "Miatas". You also don't want to mistake weight for feel, and most GRM people seem to gravitate to the more worn-out edge of teh spectrum for some reason.

First, tire choice and alignment makes a big difference on the NA and NB. I've got one of my own cars with really, really good steering and I need to take it apart to find out why. None of them are low on feel, but if you're used to heavier manual racks then you might think it's numb. The NA manual rack is pretty poor in my opinion, the rare NB manual rack is a big step up but I still prefer the power racks in both cases.

The NCs are a little less talkative. It's decent, but not as feelsome as the originals.

The NDs have an electric power rack that has a different feel. Once you get used to it and you get a proper alignment, it's pretty darn good. Loads of assist especially at low speeds, but if it's set up with the intended high caster numbers it talks quite nicely. It was calibrated differently in the Fiata and Mazda recalibrated it for the RF and the 2018 softtops.

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
3/8/18 6:52 p.m.

That red lowered ND looks so much better. Stock ride height does these cars no favors.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
3/8/18 7:04 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Have to be careful here, there are four different power steering setups in "Miatas". You also don't want to mistake weight for feel, and most GRM people seem to gravitate to the more worn-out edge of teh spectrum for some reason.

 

I think the OEMs all mistake weight for feel, sadly.

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
3/8/18 7:11 p.m.

Sold. 

 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

 

rustybugkiller
rustybugkiller Reader
3/8/18 7:38 p.m.

I think there’s two topics going on here but I’m not complaining. 

I actually think the fiat looks feminine, the ND is cool and the RF is one of the best designs. Just my 02. 

turtl631
turtl631 HalfDork
3/8/18 8:17 p.m.
Knurled. said:
Keith Tanner said:

Have to be careful here, there are four different power steering setups in "Miatas". You also don't want to mistake weight for feel, and most GRM people seem to gravitate to the more worn-out edge of teh spectrum for some reason.

 

I think the OEMs all mistake weight for feel, sadly.

Indeed.  The steering in my M3 has three settings.  I keep it on the softest.  Middle feels a bit too heavy and the "track" setting is silly.  There's not great feedback in any of them.

wspohn
wspohn Dork
3/8/18 8:38 p.m.

Feedback is the key, I think.

I drove a Z4 with electric PS and it sucked, especially compared to the hydraulic unit in my Z4MC. My Solstice has decent feel but every time I jumped into my Fiero GT (during the time I owned both) the Fiero was just SO much better. You could feel the road through your hands.

What did they say about numb power steering? It is like attempting foreplay while wearing ski mittens.

I talked to one guy that said he had disconnected the hoses on his early Miata for slalom.  Don't know if he was fibbing or not - if you remove the power assist on the Solstice by turning off the engine while rolling, you can hardly turn it at all!  My Corvette friend was of the opinion that tGM didn't get it right on that car until the C6 and the C7 was even better.

No big imptus for improvement on most cars, though as most people wouldn't know the difference and no manufacturer seems to make cars for the slalom enthusiast - except Lotus, of course.

Nick Comstock
Nick Comstock MegaDork
3/8/18 8:57 p.m.
barefootskater said:

Am I the only one who thinks the Fiata is fugly? I'm not attracted to the ND but I find the Fiat downright repulsive from every angle. 

 

That's exactly how I feel about the ND. Repulsive from every angle sums it up nicely. Although I do very much like the Fiat. 

Vigo
Vigo UltimaDork
3/8/18 9:46 p.m.

What happened to this thread?! Lol

"armchair quarterbacking the E36 M3 out of the timing angle" is right.. i hope that's over! 

Going back to the original thread topic, the power bump (if real) would be stupendous in my opinion.

Not because it's a lot of power. The ND is already the first stock Miata that i am enthusiastic about the acceleration of. It's because of where the power would be. The dyno chart Keith posted is basically the ideal scenario. Adequate torque everywhere, and a powerband that encourages you to shift at 7200 rpm. Sounds a lot like my 911.. And the 180hp ND wouldn't be as much slower as you might guess! 

It would take it up a substantial notch in my opinion. The concept of power building right up the rev limiter is hard to overstate the value of. Every time i've had a car that felt like the biggest thing it needed was a higher rev limiter, i've loved it. Those cars were far slower than the fastest cars that i've owned, but the 'thrill' of 'winding it out' overrode any objective lack of acceleration. Plus, the ND is already pretty fast! Give it 25 more hp and it actually will pull away from the modern crop of 250+hp midsize family sedans. They're already way faster than the minivans..

barefootskater
barefootskater Reader
3/8/18 11:13 p.m.
Vigo said:

What happened to this thread?! Lol

"armchair quarterbacking the E36 M3 out of the timing angle" is right.. i hope that's over! 

Going back to the original thread topic, the power bump (if real) would be stupendous in my opinion.

Not because it's a lot of power. The ND is already the first stock Miata that i am enthusiastic about the acceleration of. It's because of where the power would be. The dyno chart Keith posted is basically the ideal scenario. Adequate torque everywhere, and a powerband that encourages you to shift at 7200 rpm. Sounds a lot like my 911.. And the 180hp ND wouldn't be as much slower as you might guess! 

It would take it up a substantial notch in my opinion. The concept of power building right up the rev limiter is hard to overstate the value of. Every time i've had a car that felt like the biggest thing it needed was a higher rev limiter, i've loved it. Those cars were far slower than the fastest cars that i've owned, but the 'thrill' of 'winding it out' overrode any objective lack of acceleration. Plus, the ND is already pretty fast! Give it 25 more hp and it actually will pull away from the modern crop of 250+hp midsize family sedans. They're already way faster than the minivans..

I was just thinking along these lines. A big flat torque curve is great but if power delivery is too linear it can be almost boring. If 6000rpm doesn't feel substantially better than 3000rpm then we may as well have 4k redlines and where would that put us? Back in the 90s, that's where. More important than brute force and all-out speed is a sense of drama. 180hp in a stock ND would be quite dramatic. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/9/18 8:23 a.m.

4K redlines in the 90’s?

once you guys have a higher peak number in the ND, you’ll be asking for more torque again :)

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
3/9/18 8:39 a.m.

Interesting the V6 in my '88 300ZX didn't have a 4k redline. Nor did the sad 5.0 in my '85 Lincoln Towncar.  Nor did the 1.9L in my '89 Escort GT.

The hyperbole gets really old. 

NickD
NickD UltraDork
3/9/18 8:42 a.m.

My 1990 Miata certainly doesn't have a 4k redline either. Nor did the big luxury V6 in my Acura Legend. Or the low-powered, low-compression, single-port, throttle-body injected, single-cam 1.8L in my 1993 Subaru Loyale. 4k redlines would be '70s malaise-era garbage.

dculberson
dculberson UltimaDork
3/9/18 8:50 a.m.

My ‘96 Chevy 2500hd with the 454 had a 4500 red line. That’s about the closest I can think of.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/9/18 8:50 a.m.
z31maniac said:

Interesting the V6 in my '88 300ZX didn't have a 4k redline. Nor did the sad 5.0 in my '85 Lincoln Towncar.  Nor did the 1.9L in my '89 Escort GT.

The hyperbole gets really old. 

People like to make up "reasons" for them to not buy the new car that fits exactly what they want.  It's been happening forever.

Especially here- where Turbo Miatas didn't sell well, and the twins don't sell as well as they could.  

That, and it seems like human nature to be more negative than positive.

barefootskater
barefootskater Reader
3/9/18 9:21 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

4K redlines in the 90’s?

once you guys have a higher peak number in the ND, you’ll be asking for more torque again :)

To be fair, my cheap ass usually ends up owning GM trucks. My 1990 S10 floats valves just short of 4600 (probably shouldn't know that). Had a fox that was done by 4500 too. I may have exaggerated a bit...

Nugi
Nugi New Reader
3/12/18 11:08 a.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Assuming a '16 ND, can you, and is it worth, updating the steering code? Is there any way to adjust assist amount? It is just a bit too enthusiastic at small steering angles for me.

Love the tpms sensorless design. Fought it and finally just disabled it on all my other cars. Living where you need winter wheels obviously never occured to these damn mfgs. And they do it right on the one car that wont see snow. *facepalm* 

Looking forward to the alignment, still looking for a trustworthy local shop that will do custom specs. After upgrading to full adj suspension bits on the Honda, I am beyond sold on increased caster on short wheelbase cars.

 

 

Robbie
Robbie GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
3/12/18 12:05 p.m.
yupididit said:

Sold. 

 

In reply to Keith Tanner :

 

Anyone want to DIY?

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/d/2017-mazda-mx-5-miata-rf/6509282147.html

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/18 12:08 p.m.
Nugi said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

Assuming a '16 ND, can you, and is it worth, updating the steering code? Is there any way to adjust assist amount? It is just a bit too enthusiastic at small steering angles for me.

Love the tpms sensorless design. Fought it and finally just disabled it on all my other cars. Living where you need winter wheels obviously never occured to these damn mfgs. And they do it right on the one car that wont see snow. *facepalm* 

Looking forward to the alignment, still looking for a trustworthy local shop that will do custom specs. After upgrading to full adj suspension bits on the Honda, I am beyond sold on increased caster on short wheelbase cars.

 

According to my contacts at Mazda, you cannot reflash the steering code. You can probably drop in a later rack, though - they look identical. I haven't tried this yet but I suspect from our testing that they speak the same language externally.

BoxheadCougarTim
BoxheadCougarTim GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/18 1:00 p.m.

Is the difference marked enough to make it worth replacing the steering rack?

8valve
8valve Reader
3/12/18 1:17 p.m.

Getting back to the power thing. As a bystander who has never shopped miata, I didn't get the 2.5 skyactiv being a 3 option but not a miata option.  When I heard about the new motors  5 years back,I just assumed the 2.5 would be an option in the next miata.  Seemed like a no brainer. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
3/12/18 1:23 p.m.
BoxheadCougarTim said:

Is the difference marked enough to make it worth replacing the steering rack?

I'd probably consider it for my own (hypothetical) ND, but that's because I can get them pretty easily. In your case, try driving an RF and see what you think.

The Miata has never been a high power car, 8valve. People keep saying they want it but then cars like the 2004-05 MSM show up and they're not a sales success. Mazda's done well sticking with a lighter weight car with a small engine and not trying to out-M BMW. So it's not surprising that it didn't get the 2.5 because of what that implies for packaging and for the extra mass of the rest of the drivetrain.

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