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LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 6:12 p.m.

Hello fellow GRMers! I've been on the quest to find the perfect family wagon for some time. As I converge on a solution, the search becomes more and more difficult. Now, "perfect" is subjective so I'll explain what it means to me.

But first, a bit of context.

I grew up on Japanese cars, lots of Hondas, but with a few Volvos thrown into the mix. In other words, practicality was the name of the game. That quickly changed about 4 years ago, when I started working a new job and met some cool folks who showed me that practicality and reliability doesn't always trump feel and performance. And also, it turned out that drifting is fun! This helped plant the seed of my RWD addiction.

As my mind was slowly molding around these concepts, suddenly our 2011 Outback -- which we bought new -- decided to take a dump after 5 years and 80k miles of perfect upkeep (surprise!) and Subaru wanted nothing to do with it. This allowed me to finally fulfill a longtime promise and bought the wife an R53 MINI. My only stipulation was that it had to be a manual because (1) the autos all grenade and (2) c'mon now, it's a Cooper S! The wife always thought they were cute so it was the perfect catalyst for her learning to drive stick which by the way she absolutely loves now. Plus, it's great for parking in the city. Reliability: not so great. We did a water pump within the first three weeks, a clutch not long after, then LCA bushings, PS lines, CV boot, etc. Now the knock sensor is dead and I have to strip half the car to get to it. indecision

But I digress.

In the end, it's totally worth it as it made her a lot more enthusiastic about driving.

Back to 2016. My daily was a sweet EBP Civic Si that I had bought from our very own David Wallens, wife had the R53, and I had my S2000 and 260Z toys. With the loss of the Outback, we needed a road trip and dog car for our two Dobermans. I was considering all sorts of SUVs and ended up finding a Toyota Sequoia nearby. We didn't like the Toyota so I pulled out my phone and lo and behold, a marvelous '04 V70R appears a couple miles away! Long story short, I'd always (thought I) wanted one and couldn't pass it up.

Another long story short, the V70R was crap. The ride was quite poor, and to make up for it, the handling was also... quite poor. Now I could've probably spent money on new dampers, solid mounting the front subframe, and fixing the exhaust leak but the unfortunate reality is that I'd spend close to what the car was worth to do so. If it were a spaceball, perhaps that relationship would've gone differently. I wanted to love that car so much. I really liked the styling, the seats were incredible, the motor was fantastically old-school and unique if not a bit sluggish to pick up revs. But there were just to many negatives in terms of actual design flaws, in my humble opinion.

We sold the Volvo after about two years of ownership and replaced it with an '09 X5 xDrive48i M-Sport (try saying that fast five times). Yes, I finally got an SUV. But hey, I was getting a trailer for the new race car and I was gonna tow. Right? Well... no. I ended up getting a steel-framed 24' enclosed trailer and decided that I'm better off renting a truck for the few times a year that I'll actually be towing the thing. Now, just before getting the X5, I found a fantastic deal on an E55 wagon. Oh god, I was so ready to throw down the cash right there and then but I got a hard veto from the lady. She was war-weary of my daily searches and said we're getting the X5 and that's that. I was a bit heartbroken but figured it wasn't meant to be. 

Fast forward to a year ago when I decided that I was going to buy an E39 Touring and swap in an M5 drivetrain. That was the perfect wagon, I thought. I bought an '02 540iT with 240k on the clock and a month later, a cheap '03 M5 with 139k on it. Five minutes later, I came to the realization that my friends were right, I was never going to actually find the time to do this. I've been daily driving the M5 ever since and it's been an incredible daily, save the fuel efficiency. The 540iT was used as a dog hauler and family car until the timing chain guides went over Christmas. It's since been sold and is running again under its new owner!

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/8/20 6:26 p.m.

Mazda5

/endthread

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 6:31 p.m.

Now for the question...

What I'd like is a fun but utilitarian wagon that can comfortably hold myself, wife, child, and one Doberman. No SUVs allowed! I was just thinking today, "am I being an idiot? Put the dog in the back seat of the M5 and all will be fine". Perhaps...

In my search, I've considered many options. I do still think that an M5-swapped E39 Touring is about as close as it gets while not blowing all our savings. However, I have to either build it myself (no time now due to work) or buy one, and that becomes a pricier proposition. The upper reaches of my thoughts have considered a CTS-V Wagon and I test drove one the other week. While on paper it looks to be about the best you can get in a wagon: 550+hp, RWD, 6-speed manual available, and LSD! But it's has shortcomings as a wagon, the trunk is almost laughably small for its size. This is due to the very high floor and aggressive angle of the hatch. I've also never paid more than $14k for a car so spending CTS-V Wagon money is a bit unsettling, especially if we're ever going to buy a house in the bay area. 

The next tier down is a W211 E55 or E63 Wagon. I've only driven the one E55 a few years ago and loved it, well besides the slow transmission and old man-ish interior (why is there a giant analog clock in the instrument panel). I need to look into these more but as with  the CTS-V, I'd have to sell my M5 to get one and I'm not sure whether the W211 is worth that cost. The E39 is so damn good!

If I put my practical hat on, it's gotta be another Outback (please, no) or a third-gen XC70. I've looked at an '08 XC70 and realized that yes, they do still drive like our old Volvos from the '90s.

I'm turned off by Audi/VW as I'm allergic to their reliability, driving dynamics, and steering feel.

At this point, I have a Craigslist filter that catches any wagon in my area. I'm on the verge of either giving up and making the M5 work as a dog and family car or giving up and buying something that I don't really like. Minimum requirements are: 

- Safe. I agree they're sweet but I can't put my family in that sweet '72 Malibu wagon for our trips to Tahoe.
- Comfortable on long trips , e.g. heated seats (ventilated and massage would be the dream), wife loves having Bluetooth for phone calls and music, quiet interior
- Fits two adults, child seat (and perhaps two child seats in the future), and a 75lb dog plus camping and/or snow gear.
- No FWD
- No SUVs

For those that have made it this far, congratulations and thank you. I would love your input! Would love anything from real-world input to wild ideas.

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 6:35 p.m.
Javelin said:

Mazda5

/endthread

Quick reply! Perhaps I should check one out for the hell of it, even if it fails the "No FWD" criteria.

I should add, I'm in a bit of a not-quite-midlife crisis and am wanting what I hadn't had before. That being powerful, let's say >300hp, RWD/AWD vehicles. I've been enjoying going through these cars and finding out what I like and don't like. Frankly, if Mercedes had made an S-Class Wagon, I think I'd be pretty down for that. The AMG wagons are quite intriguing but I'm still finding it difficult to justify spending that much money. Their lack of depreciation at this point is what justifies it for me.

RossD
RossD MegaDork
2/8/20 6:51 p.m.

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
2/8/20 6:59 p.m.

If this is an awd, turbo sedan... 

Then this is an awd, turbo wagon... 

355 hp and paddle shift. 

Can tow 4,500 lbs

Made since 2009 so out there in various price ranges. 

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 7:08 p.m.

In reply to John Welsh :

Thanks John! I've definitely thought about the Flex before but never made it out to see one. I'll have to rekindle this one!

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
2/8/20 7:17 p.m.

In reply to LeonV :

The "stylized" version of the Flex is the Lincoln MKT and the Lincoln adds air conditioned seats!  

JimS
JimS Reader
2/8/20 7:25 p.m.

My son has a 13 Flex with about a 100k on it. He and his wife have a 4 year old daughter and they love the Flex. 

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 7:30 p.m.

Woof. That MKT styling is not for me. I absolutely can't stand the swoops all the manufacturers are adding to the rear door/third window.

The Flex isn't a styling showcase but I enjoy the simplicity of a function/form design. I love me a boxy wagon.

chandler
chandler PowerDork
2/8/20 7:41 p.m.

Also, Mazda5


 

came from this

Ransom
Ransom GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
2/8/20 7:56 p.m.

In reply to chandler :

Would you care to elaborate on some of the feelings you've experienced in going from Exhibit A to Exhibit B? How many steps are there, and is denial one we should be watching for?

90BuickCentury
90BuickCentury New Reader
2/8/20 7:56 p.m.

If you want power and don't care about reliability, Dodge Magnum? 

captdownshift
captdownshift GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
2/8/20 8:02 p.m.

LS swapped Volvo 960 wagon is the answer here. 

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise Dork
2/8/20 9:03 p.m.

9 year Mazda5 owner. If you are ok with Tier 3 quality, its a fine vehicle.  Buy a TSX wagon. Also have that. Best wagon (reliability/cost wise/fun wise). I love the BMW/Volvo/AMG wagons, that other people own. I dont want to deal with the maintenance. 

 

Good luck.

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 9:55 p.m.
Ransom said:

In reply to chandler :

Would you care to elaborate on some of the feelings you've experienced in going from Exhibit A to Exhibit B? How many steps are there, and is denial one we should be watching for?

Ha! Also very curious about this.

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 10:05 p.m.
90BuickCentury said:

If you want power and don't care about reliability, Dodge Magnum? 

A fair choice but I should have put "no FCA products" as part of the requirements. The Magnum is cool in theory but there's just something cheap-feeling about it that I can't get over. Knowing some people that worked there, I also don't trust Chrysler whatsoever.

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 10:06 p.m.
captdownshift said:

LS swapped Volvo 960 wagon is the answer here. 

I like the way you think! I've honestly considered it. But if I couldn't pull off an S62 swap in my 540, I have even less chance of pulling off an LS swap in a 960.

LeonV
LeonV New Reader
2/8/20 10:17 p.m.
mr2s2000elise said:

9 year Mazda5 owner. If you are ok with Tier 3 quality, its a fine vehicle.  Buy a TSX wagon. Also have that. Best wagon (reliability/cost wise/fun wise). I love the BMW/Volvo/AMG wagons, that other people own. I dont want to deal with the maintenance. 

 

Good luck.

I'm certainly on the lookout for a TSX wagon but it simultaneously upsets me every time I think about it. Why, oh why, did Honda decide that it should only come equipped with a 4-cylinder and only an automatic? At the very least, a 6-speed would've made that car so much more intriguing in combination with that sweet K24. 

I seem to have become very picky about what I like over the years but I'll do my best to give my, sometimes logical, reasoning. Having said that, I definitely won't pass up an opportunity to take a look at a TSX, Mazda5, and Flex to see what it's all about. In fact, I think there's a Mazda5 for sale around the corner from our house...

Javelin
Javelin GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/8/20 11:33 p.m.

Seriously, Mazda5 with a stick. It's like the magic school bus. Carry six people, or a set of 18x11's and loose 315 tires to get mounted, or a complete 8.8 rear axle and an entire Cobra interior including seats, or the contents of an entire Ikea apartment display, and the list goes on. A decent set of tires and shocks are all you need to flat out embarrass nearly anything on the street in twisty roads and it'll rears you with great gas mileage and gravity reliability.

I've had two of them over the course of seven years and 90k miles and after shopping every other wagon under the sun I finally figured out that I already have the best one and am just looking for a third one.

Vigo
Vigo MegaDork
2/8/20 11:36 p.m.

If you want power and don't care about reliability, Dodge Magnum?

Lol, a hemi Magnum is both faster AND more reliable than a 540 Touring!! Maybe if we up the ante to M5 Touring and SRT8 then... wait, still nope.

Floating Doc
Floating Doc GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
2/9/20 4:56 a.m.
Javelin said:

Seriously, Mazda5 with a stick. It's like the magic school bus. Carry six people, or a set of 18x11's and loose 315 tires to get mounted, or a complete 8.8 rear axle and an entire Cobra interior including seats, or the contents of an entire Ikea apartment display, and the list goes on. A decent set of tires and shocks are all you need to flat out embarrass nearly anything on the street in twisty roads and it'll rears you with great gas mileage and gravity reliability.

I've had two of them over the course of seven years and 90k miles and after shopping every other wagon under the sun I finally figured out that I already have the best one and am just looking for a third one.

Love ours. Don't know if the final version with the 2.5 was available with the 6 speed manual. Ours has a surprisingly good auto.

chandler
chandler PowerDork
2/9/20 5:26 a.m.

Mine is a 2.5 6spd. I wrecked the E39 and with the insurance money I was looking for another wagon, seats at least 5, has a flat floor when seats are folded, good reliability, manual trans, 25 or better mpg, looks ok lowered and wheels. I kept coming back to the first gen 5 but ended up ordering a 2nd gen 5. They don't have the solidity of the European wagons but they also eat up miles with no fuss. That's a 2012 I got in 2011, it has 206,000 miles on it. I did timing at 160,000 and a clutch at 205,000. Big RSB and H&Rs, a short shifter and tint and that's it.


I would  still be driving it but got a company vehicle in August 2018 so this is spare to my needs really. I've had 3 e39 touring and liked them immensely, still chose the 5

ShinnyGroove
ShinnyGroove Reader
2/9/20 7:49 a.m.

Buick Roadmaster, complete with faux wood paneling. We used to take my buddy's to track days, it was a blast. 

Raze
Raze UltraDork
2/9/20 8:34 a.m.

No CTSV wagon yet?

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