Oh great GRM Hive Mind: HPFP Internals for the MS3

So I'm sort of kicking around the idea of modifying the MS3 for the time that I'm home. Yesterday I received an email from Corksport about some new CDFP internals that they're manufacturing.

So, anyone actually had a problem with Corksport that would lead me to say no and go get some tried and true Autotechs? Or should I pull the trigger on these and report back? The price difference is non existent and it would be nice to actually have the tools to change the internals rather than smacking them with a socket, and the idea that it's developed specifically for that engine also appeals to me, but why reinvent the wheel?

Part in question

Corksport's generally one of those names I trust on sight for Mazda parts. This would be no different to me. Autotechs are nice- but hey why not... if Corksport's offering you a little extra sauce on the combo.

In other words, I'd buy the corksport ones for my ms3 if I had the cash. I need new FP internals.

Hmm... been waiting to pull the trigger on some new FP internals for my MS6.
Might have to jump on this one. I think CS is generally a highly regarded name for Mazdaspeed goodies.

mndsm wrote: Corksport's generally one of those names I trust on sight for Mazda parts. This would be no different to me. Autotechs are nice- but hey why not... if Corksport's offering you a little extra sauce on the combo. In other words, I'd buy the corksport ones for my ms3 if I had the cash. I need new FP internals.

That's kind of what I was hoping to hear. It's tough to tell what their reputation is because most mazdaspeed forums only participants are petulant children who can't form a coherent though beyond "search you berkeleying noob".

Guess I should drop my preorder tonight. Too bad I won't get to play with them until March though.

The0retical wrote:

mndsm wrote: Corksport's generally one of those names I trust on sight for Mazda parts. This would be no different to me. Autotechs are nice- but hey why not... if Corksport's offering you a little extra sauce on the combo. In other words, I'd buy the corksport ones for my ms3 if I had the cash. I need new FP internals.

That's kind of what I was hoping to hear. It's tough to tell what their reputation is because most mazdaspeed forums only participants are petulant children who can't form a coherent though beyond "search you berkeleying noob". Guess I should drop my preorder tonight. Too bad I won't get to play with them until March though.

Yeah, MSF is a bunch of lovely hootuses. I've actually been banned from there...twice, for calling Haltech and his minions an assortment of names.

I received my CorkSport internals yesterday. Boy did they package this thing well! Nice little metal gift box with everything fitting inside a custom foam cutout. Impressive!
Install tool even has my name on it and part of it doubles as a key chain/bottle opener. All in all, very well designed package.

Now I hope the internals work like they are supposed to.

Just out of curiosity, what is going to be gained by that?

I know it should flow more fuel- how much?

alfadriver wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is going to be gained by that? I know it should flow more fuel- how much?

It's not so much the fuel that's gained, it's what's NOT lost. The stock internals are junk above factory pressures, and if you start throwing more fuel at the car, the internals like to go lean and puke themselves, forcing you to buy a whole lot more than fuel pump internals. They're basically the best insurance you can buy for a DISI.

I know it's a little late, but I'll echo what mndsm said... Anything CS touches seems to be very well thought out and works right out of the box. I wouldn't hesitate to put anything from them on my car(s)...

mndsm wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is going to be gained by that? I know it should flow more fuel- how much?

It's not so much the fuel that's gained, it's what's NOT lost. The stock internals are junk above factory pressures, and if you start throwing more fuel at the car, the internals like to go lean and puke themselves, forcing you to buy a whole lot more than fuel pump internals. They're basically the best insurance you can buy for a DISI.

So there's a calibration out there that runs higher than what Mazda calibrated it to? Or are we talking engine internals that going lean will puke it out? The latter makes more sense than the former, since it's a known issue.

One key 'issue' with DI is that the pump is a fixed volume pump, no matter what you do, you can only get X amount of fuel pumping, max.

Is this pump increasing the X maxumum volume flow? By how much?

Then again, the high pressure pumps on the back end of the mazda head is different than the lobe driven pumps that Bosch makes. So what I see in the pictures are different.

Still, it's an expensive part, and just want to make sure that there are other modifications that require this kind of pump change. curious.

alfadriver wrote:

mndsm wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is going to be gained by that? I know it should flow more fuel- how much?

It's not so much the fuel that's gained, it's what's NOT lost. The stock internals are junk above factory pressures, and if you start throwing more fuel at the car, the internals like to go lean and puke themselves, forcing you to buy a whole lot more than fuel pump internals. They're basically the best insurance you can buy for a DISI.

So there's a calibration out there that runs higher than what Mazda calibrated it to? Or are we talking engine internals that going lean will puke it out? The latter makes more sense than the former, since it's a known issue. One key 'issue' with DI is that the pump is a fixed volume pump, no matter what you do, you can only get X amount of fuel pumping, max. Is this pump increasing the X maxumum volume flow? By how much? Then again, the high pressure pumps on the back end of the mazda head is different than the lobe driven pumps that Bosch makes. So what I see in the pictures are different. Still, it's an expensive part, and just want to make sure that there are other modifications that require this kind of pump change. curious.

Guys are making over 700whp out of these motors these days.

WonkoTheSane wrote: I know it's a little late, but I'll echo what mndsm said... Anything CS touches seems to be very well thought out and works right out of the box. I wouldn't hesitate to put anything from them on my car(s)...

I have never had this experience.

I do NOT trust corksport. sure the prices are right but the knowledge just is not there...

EVERY product I have experienced with them (or other peoples' experiences) is that they had to modify something to fit.

IE: CAD data shows that this part fits however we never actually attempted to try and fit it on the vehicle.

example: I ordered upper/lower radiator hoses from them. stock radiator and stock inlet/outlet on the stock water pump housing.

they gave me 4 t bolt clamps and 2 hoses. there was 3 different ID diameters of hose and 2 different T bolt clamps (size A x1 and size B x3)

The inlet and outlet on the radiator is the same size, the hoses were too small and would only fit on 1 end, nothing fit and the tolerances were incorrect. only T bolt size A actually fit. I do not trust their parts.

example 2: fiesta/mazda2 rear sway bar mounting, another EASY thing to product and install. comes u bolts and they fit in the slots on the corksport bar. However you had to get a round file to clean off the thick powdercoat and remove some metal to be able to fit the u-bolts in.

These are very simple designs that should not be this terrible, thus I do not trust a complicated thing like pistons from there. Piece of mind is not worth saving 20$ IMHO.

/end rant.

however their customer service is very helpful and I did get my money back on the hoses.

Swank Force One wrote:

alfadriver wrote:

mndsm wrote:

alfadriver wrote: Just out of curiosity, what is going to be gained by that? I know it should flow more fuel- how much?

It's not so much the fuel that's gained, it's what's NOT lost. The stock internals are junk above factory pressures, and if you start throwing more fuel at the car, the internals like to go lean and puke themselves, forcing you to buy a whole lot more than fuel pump internals. They're basically the best insurance you can buy for a DISI.

So there's a calibration out there that runs higher than what Mazda calibrated it to? Or are we talking engine internals that going lean will puke it out? The latter makes more sense than the former, since it's a known issue. One key 'issue' with DI is that the pump is a fixed volume pump, no matter what you do, you can only get X amount of fuel pumping, max. Is this pump increasing the X maxumum volume flow? By how much? Then again, the high pressure pumps on the back end of the mazda head is different than the lobe driven pumps that Bosch makes. So what I see in the pictures are different. Still, it's an expensive part, and just want to make sure that there are other modifications that require this kind of pump change. curious.

Guys are making over 700whp out of these motors these days.

I don't remember the numbers, but here's the idea- At the 700hp number that's out there, they're ALL still on stock injectors, and not even close to maxing them. BASICALLY it amounts to the HPFP on top is running at/near the ragged edge of what they're capable of. The way it sits, you MIGHT get 3 more psi out of a stock turbo with that fuel pump before they start going zoom zoom boom due to lean conditions. They just run out of steam, and the internals are not designed to go anywhere NEAR what the rest of the system is capable of. BECAUSE the DISI is such a fuel hog, they ran overkill the whole way up and down the line, but for some reason Mazda in their esteemed wisdom chose to make that the weak spot. Upgrading the internals is usually one of the few direct mods people do to the fuel system to be able to chase the big numbers.

Case study- I know my car is on the edge- and I'm running 13psi out of the stock k04 (stock tune, ported IM, bolt ons) and I'm making 256whp. Car made 20 or so less HP before the breath mods. I won't go any further til I get my fuel up to date.

Wait, 13psi? I thought I read somewhere (at least the 2nd gens) that they made ~17psi stock?

Wait, I guess easier flow would mean more power at less psi.

I believe they do 15 stock on the genpu ( haven't looked it up its what the boost gauge goes to). From what I've gathered the stock turbo is only good to about 20 or 21 psi.

I really don't want to mess with turning up the boost or different ecu mods until the internals go in because of the probability of an excessively lean condition in the high rpm ranges, even when its stock

Interested to hear how the internals work out for you fornetti. I'm still waffling since I'm not going home for a bit yet.

That was a really good explanation MNDSM

z31maniac wrote: Wait, 13psi? I thought I read somewhere (at least the 2nd gens) that they made ~17psi stock? Wait, I guess easier flow would mean more power at less psi.

Yep, they actually make... it's like 15. 7 stock. I gained 100cfm or so of flow from the mani, and because of the way the ECU works, it's actually PULLING boost. So I'm making more power, on less boost. I haven't cranked it up yet because A- I need mo fuel, and B- my turbo is shot.

In reply to The0retical:

No problem. I've spent a lot of time reading about the DISI and its foibles.... I was one of the early adopters.

In reply to mndsm:

Why do you say that the DISI is a fuel hog?

As for the pump being the weak spot- I'm quite sure that was not intentional, but the level of the state of the art of a production pump (from whereever they got it from) at the time. When I was working on the DI SHO, we had a pump that was capable of pumping roughly 420 hp of fuel. 4 lobe cam, which ran out of efficiency at high rpm. The next version, for the pick up, was designed for a 3 lobe cam, and I'm pretty sure is capable of closer to 450 hp.

Just natural development.

alfadriver wrote: In reply to mndsm: Why do you say that the DISI is a fuel hog? As for the pump being the weak spot- I'm quite sure that was not intentional, but the level of the state of the art of a production pump (from whereever they got it from) at the time. When I was working on the DI SHO, we had a pump that was capable of pumping roughly 420 hp of fuel. 4 lobe cam, which ran out of efficiency at high rpm. The next version, for the pick up, was designed for a 3 lobe cam, and I'm pretty sure is capable of closer to 450 hp. Just natural development.

The way Mazda tuned them, and the way they like to be run. They run stupid high compression (this you knew) and they don't like to be lean. If you see a exhaust tip on a DISI car, it was either just cleaned, it's new- or it's broken. These things LOVE being pig rich.

In reply to mndsm:

Oh, yea, totally forgot about that. The CX7 got a horrible reputation thanks to the real world fuel economy.

I had a MS6 as a test car for a while- it was interesting how it ran. Thankfully, in the few years between when that engine was developed and when we started- one could pump up the injection pretty nice before starting, and the pumps were more capable of running fuel. The state of the art changed quickly....

Not faulting Mazda much on the tuning- a couple of basic design choices made it knock sensitive enough that it needed to run retarded spark, which lead to higher exhast temps, which lead to running richer and richer. could have made it lower compression, could have redesigned the DI spray pattern to be more effective at cooling the charge... but they were pretty early in the game. Not first (that would by Mitsubishi), just early.

Exactly. Mazda was sort of jumping in with both feet with the DISI. Part of the BIG reason it's taking forever to make the BIG power with them. It's witchcraft!

alfadriver wrote: In reply to mndsm: Oh, yea, totally forgot about that. The CX7 got a horrible reputation thanks to the real world fuel economy. I had a MS6 as a test car for a while- it was interesting how it ran. Thankfully, in the few years between when that engine was developed and when we started- one could pump up the injection pretty nice before starting, and the pumps were more capable of running fuel. The state of the art changed quickly.... Not faulting Mazda much on the tuning- a couple of basic design choices made it knock sensitive enough that it needed to run retarded spark, which lead to higher exhast temps, which lead to running richer and richer. *could* have made it lower compression, *could* have redesigned the DI spray pattern to be more effective at cooling the charge... but they were pretty early in the game. Not first (that would by Mitsubishi), just early.

I'm curious about what design choices made it more knock sensitive.

I don't know enough about that aspect of engine design, I find it interesting.

In reply to z31maniac:

Compression ratio, tumble, temperature, injection spray pattern, injection spray timing, cam timing- all of them have an effect- but the compression ratio, amount of tumble, and spray pattern can't be changed.

Based on how the "issue" played out- my guess is that they did the development on premium fuel (it's an industrys spec fuel typcially used on dyno, OR for engine safety), and by the time it was figured out that the engine is knock sensitive on regular, it was too late to make structural changes.

It would not be the first or last time, nor would Mazda be unique in that- it's a pretty easy oversight to make.