Pain/pleasure ratio with old Lotus?

The majority of my “car guy” career has been with vehicles from the 80s and 90s — everything from an old 911 to E30s to an MR2 to the Tacoma I offroad and daily drive.

But I have been tempted recently by older stuff — specifically, tempted to get a classic car loan for a Lotus Elan while I still can.

I’m worried, though, about how much extra money, time, and work it’ll take to enjoy a car like this, and what the ratio of pleasure to pain is.

That’s not to say I don’t like working on cars — I definitely do, and have tools and a garage to do it. But I’ve also found it’s not much fun to drive a car being constantly paranoid about what major thing is going to break next, and whether you’ll be able to afford it. And the point of car ownership, to me, is driving the thing, not looking at it.

Of course, if I was a wealthy dude, I’d just send my old classic to a shop and let them deal with it. But that isn’t really my style, nor do I make the kind of money that would allow me to do that.

Part of my brain realizes that for the money it would cost to get an old Elan, I could have an ND Miata that I could drive to work every day. Or I could get an NA Miata (or 3).

But then you read things from Lotus people who swear up and down that the all the extra work is worth it for that Elan magic, or claim that they’ve been driving theirs for years “with only basic maintenance”.

I realize this is a kind of wandering question, but does anyone else have thoughts about this?

Lotuses earlier than an S1 Elise are one peg short of a Maserati BiTurbo on the pain-o-meter. I can believe that a well-maintained one could go years with only basic mainenance, but when things go wrong, it's expensive (unless the part in question is shared with a common production car) and problems escalate quickly because the cars are generally fragile and unreliable. These are mostly fiberglass-and-wire piñatas set on top of backbone frames, with British or French powertrains, after all.

I'd never consider an Elan over an ND Miata...I don't think I'd go for one over an NA Miata either. The Elan will not drive better than either. Driving about as well as an NA Miata was incredible when the Elan was new, but today, not so much. If you're going to go for an old Lotus, it should be something that offers better performance than is affordable in modern cars, like an Esprit Turbo (probably the most PITA model of all).

I've owned my in parts 76 Lotus Elite for a couple of years now. I didn't pay much but just behind able to say I own a Lotus was worth it. Disclaimer ... I've done no actual work since I've owned it. 

How many Lotus have you owned, GB?  Just curious.

The Elan is a great car.  They have got expensive recently as well.  Most Lotus owners, especially the older models (cars, not the people), are not rich people, but more working/middle class.  Are you intimidated by a job like pulling the cylinder head and pan to change out the water pump?  Then maybe the Lotus TC isn't the motor for you.  If you look at things like that as more of a "Crap.  Not again.  There goes the weekend."  Then jump on it.  If you have to pay someone else to do it and you are not in that 0.1% class who park their money where Gameboy lives, probably best to pass as well.

A running Europa will stay up with an non-SC Elise on a race track, per the people who do it.  Will that ND?

I assume you're not talking about this one.

Dr. Hess said:

How many Lotus have you owned, GB?  Just curious.

Not me, but I've seen how it goes with friends and acquaintances who own them...they tend to end up in project car hell. A friend who owns a car parts store has been working on getting his Esprit Turbo running for 4-5 years now...there's another guy whose FWD Elan was always at the shop where I got my alignments done at the time. I rarely saw it on the street. The only success story I'm personally acquainted with is this one that comes out for every classic car show and classic TSD:

Unless someone is resource challenged or mechanically challenged, a 4 cylinder Esprit Turbo 89(US) to 94, is not difficult to get and keep running.  Working on one is a bit of a challenge, but they are fairly reliable compared to, say, an Europa or Elan.  The 910 motor was way overbuilt, being an aluminum casting of a GM delivery truck block with one head of a Cosworth race V8 motor on top, roughly speaking.  And the Mitsubishi powered Elan was known as "the reliable one" until the Elise came out with Toyota power.  Again, these are not cars for Suzuki Samurai drivers.

What's a little pain when the pleasure potential is so high?

Lotus Esprit V-12 Project $8500 OBO

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/d/lotus-esprit-12-project/6395256975.html

An Elan is a great car.   After all it was the inspiration for the N/A.    The Elan was also a fast car---faster than an NA or NB, but not quite as quick as the ND.   I haven't driven one (yet), but they are supposed to be pure magic, what a small sports car is supposed to be. 

If you have the means, I'd do it.  Just be sure to buy a very good one, as a bad one will cause heartache and frustration.

I attended the Lotus Owners Gathering a few years ago in Colorado Springs.  The Lotus folks are incredibly friendly and passionate about their cars-----one of the nicest, most welcoming automotive groups I've come across.

They all loved their cars, but here a few things I learned:

Elite---- amazingly beautiful, but horribly fragile, and problematic. 

Seven--- loved, but more go-kart than car

Esprit--- owners loved them, but they all warned of it not being an easy "mistress" to own

Elan--- universally loved, flaws and all

Elise / Exige----- nearly bulletproof, owners love them like family members, and drive them anywhere without worry.

Here we are at the top of Pikes Peak--- they all made it.....except for one Elite that made it almost all the way up.  It conked out about 500 yards from the peak!  

The Seven brings up another option. A Caterham 7. I mean it is a classic Lotus but it has a more modern drivetrain.

LOL, Sorry Gameboy, if you have never "owned and lived" with one you truly will not understand.  I have friends that have owned the same elan for almost 30 years.  And most of that was reasonably trouble free.  I have owned my 68 for about 4 years.  Just got the time to get it running and on the road as of July this year.  Most of these cars sit.  Thats bad.  Carbs gum up, brake calipers stick, etc...  Mine sat for 8 years before I bought it.  That plus a number of bad previous mechanics(some with a good reputation...) had mine in rather bad sorts.  I ended up choosing to rewire the car, had the carbs professionally ultrasonic cleaned, redid the rest of the fuel system, went through the brakes, fresh fluids, and general cleaning up.  It is still not to the level I want, but it is by far the most amazing car I have ever driven.  All the usual adjectives etc...  They don't really come close.  I have ridden in more than a few, elans(s1's, s2's, and an s3 coupe), a couple Europas, and some Esprits.  Until you personally get to pilot one, you won't understand.  I've owned somewhere in the mid 70 number of cars.  All sorts, brits, jap, german, 1 Alfa, Murican', raced shifter karts, a couple lotus 7 replicas, etc.  Nothing, and I mean nothing has ever blown me away by the shear feel of an elan.  You can absolutely feel what the miata(i've owned 7 of them) engineers were shooting for.  However, you just cant duplicate it in a modern requirement car, at least I haven't found it.  The unbelievable light touch of all the controls.  How solid, planted, and well connected the car feels.  And a well tuned twin cam seems to rev and pull for ever.  A very good friend has owned his elan coupe for almost 30 years.  He bought it when he was around 18 or 20.  It was his daily driver for like 15 + years.  Yes it takes some care and maintenance.  No its not as worry free as a miata.  But its a vintage car.  Once they are sorted, they are as reliable as any other old car.  Mostly because there really isn't much to actually go wrong.  Yes it could go very wrong(ask Dr. Hess), but if you have a willingness to spin a spanner, and its insured, its so far worth the effort it can't be described.  I am also rebuilding a 66 s2 elan that my dad bought in 1990.  So far i've rebuilt the engine(no big deal), trans(same as any other 4 spd), brakes(there just disk brakes), rear diff(same), etc. etc.  They really are simple cars.  Don't be scared off by the nay sayers.  You will kick yourself if you do! 

I suck at posting pics but here is a couple of my 68 elan.  Yes Woody, I finally got some pics!

PS:  Dr Hess, any chance your coming to the Lotus LOG in Ohio this coming year?  Anyone else?

Take care

Paul

jstein77 said:

I assume you're not talking about this one.

 

That was supposed to be the most stable small fwd platform of its day with admittedly a nvh focus that put it almost in GT territory. 

In reply to paulmpetrun :

Ohio in '18?  Dunno.  That's closer than the east coast.  Last one I was at was in Dallas. If I get the Locost running, I might drag it over.

BTW, I put 30K miles on a 74.  It was telepathic. 

My dream car is a white S1 Elan with six tail lights. Or a dark blue pre Airflow coupe.

I've never seen one from this angle before.

I know my dad struggled with his Elan (which he got new), but when I hear the stories- how we were trying to use it had it out of it's element.  

On the other hand, I have a friend who has one, and he loves it, faults and all.  

My suggestion would be to get involved in the Lotus club so that you can find a way to ride and drive one.  The first thing you will find is that they drive in no way, shape, or form like a Miata.  Not at all.  And find one that is mostly stock.  

With that experience, you will find out how much you like them, and that will give you an idea of how much punishment you are willing to take to own one.  My honest impression of Lotuses are very similar to Alfas- the biggest problems with them can be traced to really bad maintenance.  Ether neglect, poorly executed mods, or mods that make the car worse to own.  Very common problem with Alfas, and it seems Lotuses, too.

If you want an easy to own car that drives nice, and the top goes down, the Miata is an amazing car to own.  But the experience with the Lotus Elan is very, very different.  And I've never owned one.

Try it before you swear one off.

26R.....

Arnie Loyning has been racing his 26R for over 30 years...  it has been rebuilt a number of times.  He also races it against MUCH MORE POWERFUL cars.....

coexist said:

What's a little pain when the pleasure potential is so high?

Lotus Esprit V-12 Project $8500 OBO

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/d/lotus-esprit-12-project/6395256975.html

 

Wow, going to the effort of v12 swapping a lotus esprit and choosing the poor m70. 

I still want that though!

Robbie said:

coexist said:

What's a little pain when the pleasure potential is so high?

Lotus Esprit V-12 Project $8500 OBO

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/cto/d/lotus-esprit-12-project/6395256975.html

 

Wow, going to the effort of v12 swapping a lotus esprit and choosing the poor m70. 

I still want that though!

Scariest part is that it sounds like that M70 is hooked to the stock gearbox 

In reply to monkeyodeath

How old are you?  I ask because if it’s not on your must have list no real vintage car will make you happy. The maintenance level is far higher on those than modern cars.  None of them are in the category of drive it and park it like modern cars are.  

By modern I’m talking about post 80’s.

Up to the early 70’s cars are lot more simple to work on ( if you’re comfortable with setting points and cleaning plugs every 6000 miles or so)   But they do need regular attention that you might not be prepared to spend 

I'm in my early 30s. 

A lot of my interest is due to a few experiences I had with an Triumph roadster. I adored how small that car was, how exposed and open and mechanical it was, moving through the grinding gears and just being entirely involved with the driving experience.

As someone who likes motorcycles, I love the idea of a tiny, fiberglass car barely above the roadway. Plus I feel like Southern California, where I live, is about as ideal an environment for owning one of those cars as there is (provided I keep it off the freeway).

The Elan, to me, seems like the apotheosis of that experience. I realize that the Miata comes close on paper, but as much as I liked the cockpit feel of the ND I recently checked out, it's hard to ignore that high beltline, the wraparound dash, and just the solid modernness of the whole thing. Just feels less exciting.

Like I said, working on cars doesn't bother me, nor does maintenance. I doubt I'd be putting massive miles on an Elan, though I'd definitely want to drive it fairly frequently.

I think my concern comes from some experiences I had in the past -- buying poorly-maintained project cars because they were cheap. It got to a point where I was stressed out every time I'd drive the car, kind of just dreading what new thing would break next. I learned a lot along the way, but definitely realized that a constantly-broken car isn't really much fun.

I guess I'm just trying to suss out whether an Elan is just a high-maintenance car, or a unreliable, pain in the ass one. (there is a difference)

Sounds like I need to drive one for real...

I had a '79 Spitfire 1500.  I bought the 74 Lotus Europa 74 (TCS).  I took it for a drive from Glendale to Montrose, then back.  Then I got in the Spitfire and took the same road.  I almost killed myself in the Spitfire because I went into the corners close to the speed I had just done in the Europa, which wasn't even pushing it. 

In reply to monkeyodeath :

Numerically, an Elan may be close to a Miata. But that and the top down is about all they share. 

The experience driving an Elan isn’t at all like a Miata. Again, you should find a way to drive one. I’m 100% sure you will *feel* faster in the lotus, even if it’s slower. 

Find one to drive. 

monkeyodeath said:

I'm in my early 30s. 

A lot of my interest is due to a few experiences I had with an Triumph roadster. I adored how small that car was, how exposed and open and mechanical it was, moving through the grinding gears and just being entirely involved with the driving experience.

As someone who likes motorcycles, I love the idea of a tiny, fiberglass car barely above the roadway. Plus I feel like Southern California, where I live, is about as ideal an environment for owning one of those cars as there is (provided I keep it off the freeway).

The Elan, to me, seems like the apotheosis of that experience. I realize that the Miata comes close on paper, but as much as I liked the cockpit feel of the ND I recently checked out, it's hard to ignore that high beltline, the wraparound dash, and just the solid modernness of the whole thing. Just feels less exciting.

Like I said, working on cars doesn't bother me, nor does maintenance. I doubt I'd be putting massive miles on an Elan, though I'd definitely want to drive it fairly frequently.

I think my concern comes from some experiences I had in the past -- buying poorly-maintained project cars because they were cheap. It got to a point where I was stressed out every time I'd drive the car, kind of just dreading what new thing would break next. I learned a lot along the way, but definitely realized that a constantly-broken car isn't really much fun.

I guess I'm just trying to suss out whether an Elan is just a high-maintenance car, or a unreliable, pain in the ass one. (there is a difference)

Sounds like I need to drive one for real...

I completely understand what you are talking about when you say you worry about the next thing breaking down. 

I own what most would consider a car with exactly that characteristic  the early 1950’s MGTseries.  

The way I dealt with it is tore the car down to the smallest part and rebuilt, reconditioned, and refreshed the car completely.  Then the day I finished it I drove it across country. From San Diego to Minnesota.  Since then it has raced in  perhaps 50 vintage sports car races. Frankly it’s as reliable as Big Ben 

yes there is some maintenance involved. But it’s all been done by me before and I enjoy doing it.  

No dread or worry involved