rcutclif wrote: Well, here's another way to look at it. Here is data that shows average miles per year by gender and age group.https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm</
Those averages has to be severely outdated.
rcutclif wrote: Well, here's another way to look at it. Here is data that shows average miles per year by gender and age group.https://www.fhwa.dot.gov/ohim/onh00/bar8.htm</
Those averages has to be severely outdated.
There has been a discussion over on Sprinter-Forum DANGER-ALERT OBD Insurance Monitors since January, started by a respected independent mechanic. Bottom line is these things are known to damage vehicle electronics and neither the insurance companies nor vehicle manufacturers have been willing to help the cost for repairs.
We have seen quite a few of these things in customer cars, so far we haven't seen one kill any electronics. That does NOT mean it can't/doesn't happen!
My insurance company wanted me to install these when I switched to them about a year ago. Because I don't trust anybody and am a little OCD I decided to read the fine print in the contract. It stated that if I was in an accident I could not use the data to defend myself, but the other party could subpeona the data and use it in court against me. I assume this is because I would be entering into a contract with the insurance company and they wouldn't want me using it against them, but they had no way of stopping a third party from requesting the data. I of course refused to put them in my cars.
erohslc wrote: Having worked on a Big Data project to capture and analyze the data streams from these devices, I can speak to their capability. 1) Direct interface to your vehicle ECU. That gives access to everything it handles, speed, RPM, odometer, baro pressure, fuel level and rate, O2 sensor, everything. 2) On board 3 axis accelerometer to 0.01 G resolution. Every movement in every direction. 3) GPS, able to resolve to 0.1 meter, depending on location, signal path, etc. 4) On board cellular connection for upload of stored data, also capable of coarse triangulation (perhaps 10 feet). 5) Data capture rate is 1 second, storage capable for up to 1 hour between uploads. 6) Onboard clock, accurate to 1 second per year or better, corrections from GPS or Cellular network. 7) Encrypted data stream, so don't bother trying to spoof it. Do not fool yourself that they will not know how fast you are going, or what the speed limit is. They will know precisely where you drive, park, when, and for how long. Don't even think that you can fool it by plugging it into another car, since each ECU has a unique ID tied to the VIN. The long term vision is metered insurance, on demand. Pay only for what you use. You pay only for where and when you drive or park based on detailed loss experience for that location, time and date, the car you are in, traffic density, weather conditions, etc. In an ideal world, for some folks, that could be cheaper and fairer insurance. Certainly could yield fair and accurate costs for good drivers. So costs based on the actual real world results of individual behaviors, rather than very broad general actuarial groups (ie under 25, Male, etc.). Not saying I like it, just sharing what I know.
This is why I'm not interested in using "the device"(Stewie Griffin voice). Based on the information they already have about how much I drive and general times of the day I drive, it's an invasion of my privacy for them to know how often I practice driving(trying to drift) like a hooligan on some dirt roads that no one is on or how much I want to work the tires and suspension on the curvy roads by my house.
I also don't have a car that's worth tens of thousands of dollars, so any insurance company doesn't need to charge me very much money anyway.
But, if you drive conservatively, it may not be the worst idea in the world.
The insurance companies are pulling a Mark Zuckerberg. They are asking us to volunteer information that no court in the country would say they have a right to.
Eventually, this will fundamentally shift the entire industry. The actuarial tables will change from being based on real statistics of incidents with real drivers of particular demographics to being based on projected statistics on perceived outcomes of particular driving styles.
We will have the FaceBook of insurance.
It will not be good news for performance enthusiasts (who might actually be the BEST drivers on the road, not the worst).
Ken Block will be paying the highest insurance of anyone on the road, in spite of his phenomenal control skills.
I swerved hard to miss a deer this morning in a known accident-prone area.
The insurance companies already know this is an area with a huge deer population, and have paid many thousands of dollars in claims. There are probably 2 accidents per week every week in a 3 mile stretch of road. The costs of the claims have been spread across tens of thousands of customers who live in the area.
By today's methods of calculating, I saved the insurance company a lot of money by swerving.
By tomorrow's black box method of calculating, I will be perceived as an erratic or reckless driver, and my rates will go up.
one solution to BIG BROTHER type of ins coverage .. just drive '96 and older cars … no OBDII port
thought I'm sure they'll come up with something for that …
SVreX wrote: I swerved hard to miss a deer this morning in a known accident-prone area. The insurance companies already know this is an area with a huge deer population, and have paid many thousands of dollars in claims. There are probably 2 accidents per week every week in a 3 mile stretch of road. The costs of the claims have been spread across tens of thousands of customers who live in the area. By today's methods of calculating, I saved the insurance company a lot of money by swerving. By tomorrow's black box method of calculating, I will be perceived as an erratic or reckless driver, and my rates will go up.
EXACTLY!
Or when Grandpa pulls out in front of me and I maneuver around him - I am the "bad" driver.
In reply to SVreX:
Seems like Ken Block might also be the perfect spokesman against something like this. 
NGTD wrote:SVreX wrote: I swerved hard to miss a deer this morning in a known accident-prone area. The insurance companies already know this is an area with a huge deer population, and have paid many thousands of dollars in claims. There are probably 2 accidents per week every week in a 3 mile stretch of road. The costs of the claims have been spread across tens of thousands of customers who live in the area. By today's methods of calculating, I saved the insurance company a lot of money by swerving. By tomorrow's black box method of calculating, I will be perceived as an erratic or reckless driver, and my rates will go up.EXACTLY! Or when Grandpa pulls out in front of me and I maneuver around him - I am the "bad" driver.
Well, kinda. Two reasons why I believe this is not the full truth.
On the other hand, good work missing that deer!
D2W wrote: My insurance company wanted me to install these when I switched to them about a year ago. Because I don't trust anybody and am a little OCD I decided to read the fine print in the contract. It stated that if I was in an accident I could not use the data to defend myself, but the other party could subpeona the data and use it in court against me. I assume this is because I would be entering into a contract with the insurance company and they wouldn't want me using it against them, but they had no way of stopping a third party from requesting the data. I of course refused to put them in my cars.
I've heard that this is why there are so many dash cam youtube videos from russia. Supposedly russian insurance companies will not cover you unless you can prove you are not at fault, so everyone started capturing their own data all the time.
Maybe the answer to all of this is: create a company that makes these and sells them to individuals, not insurance companies. Then the data they collect would be owned by the individual, not the company. Then you could theoretically 'submit' your data to the insurance company for a discount, or you could just keep it all in case of a crash.
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