ThurdFerguson said:I'm curious about who is checking the pay chargers for accuracy? Like the states do for gas pumps.
Good question and I don't know. Also, how do road taxes figure into this? When I buy gas at the pump, I pay taxes. When I juice, I don't.
David S. Wallens said:
Q: Is charging at home an option?
A: Yes, totally is. The charging rate will be slower but, in theory, you can leave every day with a full charge. As Tom learned us, a solar array on his roof provides free fuel.
I love the potential synergy between solar and at-home EV charging. Yes, I know it doesn't work for people who live in apartments or caves or where the sun don't shine. It does offer real possibilities for a non-trival percentage of the population, including myself. I have solar on my Westfalia and it's magic how the sun can make ice cubes for me for as long as I have water to put in the freezer.
But unless you're charging during the day, it means you also need somewhere to store your electrons or you feed back into the grid and use it to "store" your electricial energy. The problem with the latter is that if the grid goes down, you can't use your solar power (source: FM has panels on the roof and has had grid failures).
(I ran some rough numbers about what it would look like to have a dedicated battery bank for the EV that was half the capacity of the EV battery, but they were reaaaally rough so I've deleted it)
Kinda like buying a new EV vs picking up a used Accord on CL, it's hard to come up with the cost savings when you take the capital investment into account :) But it's a really interesting concept.
if I had the means I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Tesla or a Taycan. We are supposed to get the ID3 in Canada, and I am certainly going to take a long look at it when we are due to replace the GTI.
It is an exciting time to be an enthusiast -- even if the paradigm is shifting without a clutch . . .
Ignore the fancy Photoshop. Remember, I'm not the art department.
So, I wondered, what if we were driving a Tesla for this trip? Here we can compare maps. Tesla operates way, way more chargers, but either option offers some en route from Atlanta to Daytona--basically along I-95 and in Lake City and Jax. Move away from the interstates and, yeah, advantage Tesla.
Be interesting to see how these maps change in the next year or two, especially as EA has only been around since late 2016.
David S. Wallens said:ThurdFerguson said:I'm curious about who is checking the pay chargers for accuracy? Like the states do for gas pumps.
Good question and I don't know. Also, how do road taxes figure into this? When I buy gas at the pump, I pay taxes. When I juice, I don't.
Some states have a surcharge on registration fees for EVs. Colorado is one.
Also - dirty secret - the gas taxes are way too low right now, and more efficient vehicles are only making that worse. It needs to be revisited across the entire fleet and there's no good way to do it. The best way is also a scary one - miles driven x weight / number of axles, which means tracking or at least annual odometer verification.
In reply to David S. Wallens :
That's a great point, and thanks for the detailed reply! Betamax was better than VHS, lest we forget....an apt comparison, perhaps.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Realistically, our tree canopy is probably too thick for solar. Keeps the a/c bill down, though.
Dave M said:In reply to David S. Wallens :
That's a great point, and thanks for the detailed reply! Betamax was better than VHS, lest we forget....an apt comparison, perhaps.
Thanks and, true. Guess the market gets to decide.
The big take-home here: A week ago, not sure I would have signed up to go on a road trip in an EV. Upon arriving in Daytona on Friday, I would have driven it to the West Coast. I knew we'd be fine.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
The easy way is just to expand it to a carbon tax and then use income-based rebates to make it less regressive. I think NY is the closest to doing it this way. Of course, given the various subsidies, a harmonized approach across state and federal level is the way to optimize the system, but we don't do harmonized regulation here.
Dave M said:In reply to David S. Wallens :
That's a great point, and thanks for the detailed reply! Betamax was better than VHS, lest we forget....an apt comparison, perhaps.
So it all comes down to whichever one is adopted by porn...
Then again, we've managed to survive with ICE vehicles running on at least four or five different types of fuel, some of which are completely incompatible. So maybe it's gasoline vs diesel instead of Betamax vs VHS. And we know how that turned out!
Betamax vs VHS went right back to the source, complete incompatibility of both tapes and players from the moment they were produced. If a video store wanted to stock a movie, it had to choose one or the other and there was no savings in choosing both. That's not the case with an EV charging station, it's the same cost to get the power to the station. The only difference is right at the recharge point, it's not like Tesla and EVs use a different kind of electron. So it's even easier than gasoline vs diesel.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Good point.
So you think we'll see a single charging station offering both Tesla and EA electrons? (And do they even have any shared stations at this point?)
I think we will see it, the same way we already see multiple charging types at an EA station. I don't know if it's been done yet though. Interestingly, EA does appear to be using Tesla energy storage at some stations so they can offer higher levels of peak power than can be supplied by the grid.
Before we see them sharing stations, we'll likely see stations that are very close to each other. Like Conoco and Esso gas stations across the street from each other. That's probably already the case. From a user standpoint, that's no different than having both at the same station.
Another apt comparison might be iPhone vs Android. There's a similar level of, umm, enthusiasm about that. But bear with me.
Tesla, by owning the whole experience, has greater control. The car knows where the stations are. You pull up, the car opens its charge port and you slot the plug home. Done. No payment, no messing around with different adapters or apps. It's a Supercharger, you know it will work. Costs are (I believe) consistent across the network, and Tesla can turn on free Supercharging for a car as part of a promotion or a perk. It feels very easy and futuristic. But it only works for Teslas, and it may not scale as Tesla goes from being the biggest producer of EVs to one of the biggest producers of EVs to not being one of the biggest producers of EVs.
EA is trying to service a whole range of cars. You need to use an app to unlock it - Porsche sent an engineer along on your trip to make sure it would happen- and they're still a little dodgy at times. Costs vary and can be a little opaque because they're tied to charging speed which isn't always consistent. There have been problems with credit card payments (vs app) because of the length of the transaction or at least how EA implements it. The whole experience is a little rougher around the edges because it's having to service so many different users and cars. Even Teslas can use it if they have the right adapter. It will likely never be as slick as the walled garden approach, but it will likely be more universal. It feels more like dealing with a gas station, just less smelly.
Here's a fun thought - there has to be some communication between the charger and the car. I'm sure there is. Is this an attack vector for malware?
Another thought: Modern convenience stores seem to be more about the food than the gas. How long before a charging station at every Wawa, Love, 7-11, etc.?
David S. Wallens said:Ignore the fancy Photoshop. Remember, I'm not the art department.
So, I wondered, what if we were driving a Tesla for this trip? Here we can compare maps. Tesla operates way, way more chargers, but either option offers some en route from Atlanta to Daytona--basically along I-95 and in Lake City and Jax. Move away from the interstates and, yeah, advantage Tesla.
Be interesting to see how these maps change in the next year or two, especially as EA has only been around since late 2016.
Clarification for those who don't know the Tesla icons - red are Superchargers. Light grey are future Superchargers. Dark grey are "destination chargers", basically Level 2 chargers at places like hotels so you car can charge overnight. So you basically only look at the red icons for road trip purposes. Tesla still has a clear network advantage, but it's not as overwhelming as it appears on first glance.
With the EA stations, you may have to filter for your particular type of charger. For example, if your car only uses Chadmo and not CCS, then you need to know if that station has the former. Teslas can use Chadmo (with a $450 adapter) but they cannot use CCS in this country AFAIK. I don't know what the Taycan can use, but other cars like Bolts and Leafs will definitely be paying attention to charger type.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Just a slight clarification: The EA tech didn't travel with us. He just met us in Lake City to monitor the situation as the Taycan is new to the world and can charge faster than the average bear. Porsche sent along PR people. What do you call a journalist without a PR person nearby? Sober and hungry. (That's a joke.)
Either way, Porsche made sure there was a tech standing beside the charger when you were charging.
Of course you had PR people :) Honestly, going along on rides with journos is a perk of that job. I enjoy it. Except for the ones who can't drive, that's less fun...
In reply to Keith Tanner :
That's what I found interesting, too: While there are way more Tesla chargers out there, the EA grid is nearly strong enough for the common road trip--and it's new, too.
Drive a Tesla crosscountry today? Sure. The Taycan or something that's tied to the EA network? Sure.
"But what if I want to drive circles in the middle of rural..."
Well, EVs can't do everyhing yet.
I'm guessing that this is what it felt like owning a car a hundred years ago.
I feel I should point out that Keith and David are specifically talking about very high speed chargers. These are direct DC chargers. Tesla has a proprietary standard. Porsche uses the SAE CCS standard, as does everyone else except Nissan (who uses CHAdeMO, which is the real loser in the fast-charge standards wars). For lesser charging, the cars all have on-board chargers that accept 120/240 AC.
For normal AC charging up to about 10kW (again, using the on-board chargers), everyone uses SAE J1772 and Tesla provides an adapter to it. European Model 3s come standard with a J1772/CCS charge port.
EDIT: I'm not in the market but I'm psyched to read that the EPA numbers appear to be very low. Your drive, as described, would NEVER be anything close to rated range in any other EV. In fair weather (no HVAC, no precip) both my e-golf and Volts would have hit rated range with the cruise control set around 68mph. From reading, that number is 65ish with a Tesla S or 3.
Yes, high speed chargers are what make road trips beyond the car's range possible. Anything else and you're realistically looking at an overnight stop - which is legit, if you can arrange for charging there and you were planning on stopping anyhow!
Just looking at my 2019 calendar. If I had a car that could go 250-300 miles per charge, during the entire year I would have had to recharge about half a dozen times while on the road--and we basically live on an island, meaning we're regularly driving an hour each way to see friends, hear music, etc.
So you're stuck in a Wal-Mart parking lot with a six figure car for an hour. What did you do?
shane86 said:So you're stuck in a Wal-Mart parking lot with a six figure car for an hour. What did you do?
Looked at piñatas, mostly. 
But, really, it should have been closer to a 15-minute stop. Charging the car back to nearly full ate up the extra time. For science.
Some more Walmart photos for the rest of the class:
The 911 was our chase car. (In reality, it's an employee's company lease, and he used the Daytona trip to rack up some break-in miles.)
The blue Turbo w/ the Turbo S wheels was the other chase car. The Turbo S wheels look good on there.
And did I mention that it was raining?
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