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93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/18/11 3:42 p.m.

So I was asking about limited slip differentials on another forum (Triumph Experience) and I was told by a member (who can be a major troll) that Quaife differentials were crap. Has anyone heard this before or is he talking a load of rubbish?

ransom
ransom HalfDork
10/18/11 3:45 p.m.

I, um... I haven't heard that, but what do I know.

Was it a dismissal of torque-biasing diffs, of Quaife's particular design, or of their manufacturing?

spitfirebill
spitfirebill SuperDork
10/18/11 3:46 p.m.

What? Do you not believe everything Gareth says? I thought they were good but I have no firsthand experience. Gareth makes Worksgarage seem like a very pleasant fellow.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/18/11 3:47 p.m.

A certain troll said

Quaife are rubbish. They simply don't work. I've built LSDs for Spitfires for near 30 years inc the original salisbury fitted in the Le Mans car, inc ADU3B. (I used to have one in my road car). The only worthwhile LSD is a PLATE TYPE. There are 2 done in the UK now, (Tranx and Gripper), and another salisbury was remanufactured in Australia for the dolomite. The price is quite high, but sure as anything no-one would ever bring me to lower the price ever again.
93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/18/11 3:48 p.m.
spitfirebill wrote: What? Do you not believe everything Gareth says? I thought they were good but I have no firsthand experience. Gareth makes Worksgarage seem like a very pleasant fellow.

I don't listen to him because he is such a troll. I am just double checking to see if anyone else had heard this or if he was talking a load of E36 M3 again.

scardeal
scardeal HalfDork
10/18/11 4:02 p.m.

I would take a Quaife over
1. An open diff
2. A garden-variety viscous
3. A spool
4. a 2-way only clutch type

I'm thinking I'd go with a 1.5 clutch type over a Quaife, though.

oldtin
oldtin Dork
10/18/11 4:14 p.m.

Mostly the negative I've ever heard about Quaife has more to do with cost than quality. Not 100% on spits, but I know of a few holding up fine in TR4s. Some of the racers just have lincoln lockers that hold up fine too. I would chalk that one up to a troll going about his trolling ways.

mad_machine
mad_machine SuperDork
10/18/11 4:19 p.m.

or somebody who doesn't understand how they work. A gear style diff is a LOT different than a plate type

jimbbski
jimbbski Reader
10/18/11 4:24 p.m.

A Quaife and some of the other gear type limited slip diffs do have one problem. You can lose all drive if you lift one of the driven wheels off of the pavement. A clutch diff or a locker will not do that but saying that I did have one in a FWD race car and it was just fine! On wet pavement it was much faster then other FWD cars without a limited slip diff.

If it is a RD car a clutch or locker is my choise, if FWD I would prefer a Quaife type.

ransom
ransom HalfDork
10/18/11 4:25 p.m.

If I were attempting to be charitable, I wonder whether a torque-sensing diff might be a poor match for an early Spitfire due to the IRS jacking and the need for at least a little traction on the inside wheel to make the mechanism work?

In addition to being a misplaced effort to make sense of a troll, that's also without a great working knowledge of current torque sensing diffs and their applications.

SyntheticBlinkerFluid
SyntheticBlinkerFluid Dork
10/18/11 4:25 p.m.

I have had two friends that have installed Quaife differentials in their DD/Track car. One with an Integra GSR and one in an A2 Golf.

I had never heard anything from either of them negative. I had always heard they were good quality.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/18/11 4:26 p.m.
mad_machine wrote: or somebody who doesn't understand how they work. A gear style diff is a LOT different than a plate type

The worrying thing is this troll has written a book on tuning Spitfires.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/18/11 4:28 p.m.

A Quaife is simply a helical type correct?

I have always heard/ read that the helical type is preferable to a clutch type on a road coarse.

RedS13Coupe
RedS13Coupe Reader
10/18/11 4:37 p.m.
jimbbski wrote: A Quaife and some of the other gear type limited slip diffs do have one problem. You can lose all drive if you lift one of the driven wheels off of the pavement. A clutch diff or a locker will not do that but saying that I did have one in a FWD race car and it was just fine! On wet pavement it was much faster then other FWD cars without a limited slip diff. If it is a RD car a clutch or locker is my choise, if FWD I would prefer a Quaife type.

Not can....WILL.

The helical diff needs a certain level of resistance to create the axial thrust on the helical gears that make the thing work. Works very well as long as there is SOMETHING for the tire to spin against... but free floating your in trouble.

Otherwise a torsen is idea for a DD because they basically act like an open diff that will almost never slip the inside wheel. No chatter or noticeable lockup, no "engagement"... the inside wheel just does not want to spin under power.

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/18/11 4:44 p.m.

The nice thing about helicals is that they don't affect turn-in. But a good clutch-pack can make a huge difference in the ability to lay down power on corner exit. I compared a Guru (slightly preloaded helical) to an OS Giken (many clutch plates) in the Targa Miata, and knocked a second off my previous best time with the latter.

ransom
ransom HalfDork
10/18/11 4:57 p.m.

In reply to Keith:

Given the theory that a helical should be able to put the power where the traction is, do you have a notion why a clutch type works better on exit?

Is it the same anti-differential-action "locking together" of the left and right wheels which causes turn-in problems that also stabilizes exits by increasing that effect under load (assuming ramps)?

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/18/11 4:58 p.m.
Keith wrote: The nice thing about helicals is that they don't affect turn-in. But a good clutch-pack can make a huge difference in the ability to lay down power on corner exit. I compared a Guru (slightly preloaded helical) to an OS Giken (many clutch plates) in the Targa Miata, and knocked a second off my previous best time with the latter.

So in your opinion, on a low powered car which would work better?

Keith
Keith SuperDork
10/18/11 5:02 p.m.

This was a fairly low-powered car - I had the 2.0 in it. So we're talking about right around 170 rwhp, 2300 lbs. Nothing extreme by modern standards.

Even with the helical, you're still limited by the amount of traction on that inside wheel. The amount of torque being put down on the "good" wheel is just a multiplication of the torque the "bad" wheel can deliver. If you're mid-corner, that may not be very much. The clutch pack doesn't care, so I was able to get on the gas much earlier in the corner. I think it is a direct relation to the diff's resistance to turn-in. The test was on a tight course, which is going to exaggerate all of the characteristics listed above.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/18/11 5:14 p.m.
Keith wrote: Even with the helical, you're still limited by the amount of traction on that inside wheel. The amount of torque being put down on the "good" wheel is just a multiplication of the torque the "bad" wheel can deliver. If you're mid-corner, that may not be very much.

I imagine that this would be made worse in a Spitfire due to the jacking force by the swing axles.

doc_speeder
doc_speeder Reader
10/18/11 6:25 p.m.

I had a Peloquin in my last Mk2 VW. As far as I know it's a blatant copy of the Quaife. The car was a DD and occasional autocross car. Made maybe 130 whp or so. The diff was AWESOME. Unreal how something so completely un-noticeable on the street can work so good autocrossing. Hit the apex, then NAIL it. No more wait, wait, wait, ok now I can go WOT. It just pulled the front end around corners.

loosecannon
loosecannon Reader
10/18/11 6:43 p.m.

I autocrossed a Caterham at Nationals with a Quaife and was constantly spinning an inside tire, I sure didn't like it

fifty
fifty Reader
10/18/11 6:57 p.m.

I too have a Peloquin (basically a US made Quaife). Works great, but I don't have a lot to compare it with, at least in my Golf.

There are clutch type LSDs at the same price point, but in spite of their apparent superiority I ruled them out based on this: the need for periodic maintenance. There are no wear parts in a helical LSD, but the clutch packs are a wear item.

I've burnt the clutch type LSD out of my Subaru (track use) so I'm speaking from experience.

mad_machine
mad_machine SuperDork
10/18/11 8:39 p.m.

Indeed clutch packs need to be replaced. I need to do mine in my ti.

Ian F
Ian F SuperDork
10/19/11 6:30 a.m.

I have no Spitfire experience with a Quaife, but I can confirm from experience that inside rear wheel jacking can be an issue on a Spit. My old Spit 6 was famous for it. So there may be some truth to the troll's post if the Quaife needs both tires in contact.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure where to source a clutch-type diff for a Spitfire. I'm pretty sure Quantum Mechanics is a Quaife dealer, so I'd probably start with TSI and see what Ted says.

93EXCivic
93EXCivic SuperDork
10/19/11 7:20 a.m.

In reply to Ian F:

Two companies in England make them (Tran X and Gripper Differentials).

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