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volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/16/22 9:25 a.m.

Last night I finally got up my nerve and put the Jag up on the lift to tackle the rear brakes.  There had been a slow leak in the system, as evidenced by the reservoir loosing a bit of fluid, and since I'd already overhauled the front calipers the process of elimination led me to the rears.  

Holy hell.  What the berkeley were the engineers at Jaguar thinking?  It looks like the whole rear end was bolted together, and then a cage welded over the whole thing to prevent any sort of servicing.  I managed to detach the hard lines leading from the junction block to each of the calipers, and extracted 3 of the brake pads.  The driver's side outside pad is stuck, with no good way to reach any sort of tool in there to pull it out.  I also got the parking brake cable off the caliper levers.

Assuming I get all the pads out...what's next?  I read some online that the calipers can be removed without dropping the whole rear end (!!!) but I can barely see the bolts to do that, let alone reach them with a tool.  Even if I did drop the whole rear end (!!!) I can't see how that would help that much.

Related question:  How much can be done on the rear without dropping it out of the car?  Can I replace the rotors?  How about the shocks?  I attempted to get a spring compressor on the springs but it won't fit; Jag uses two small coils per side.  

I'm feeling this is a situation I may need to buy the shop manual for.  Yikes.  I've been working on Volvo Amazons too much apparently, where stuff bolts together logically and the car practically fixes itself.  

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/16/22 9:33 a.m.

InB4theFrench!

 

Seriously though, drop the rear and replace as much as you can reasonably can!

Indy - Guy
Indy - Guy UltimaDork
8/16/22 10:12 a.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Plus one with Yupididit.

 

Frenchyd usually recommends just dropping the entire subframe assembly.

 

kb58
kb58 SuperDork
8/16/22 10:15 a.m.

I agree with dropping the rear assembly... it's "probably" only 4-8 bolts holding the whole thing in.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/16/22 10:16 a.m.

Part of my concern with dropping the rear is that it's not readily apparent what that gains me.  The other part of my concern is that some things might be easier to do with the rear still attached to the car, to provide some leverage while unbolting, as opposed to having to wrestle the whole ungodly thing around on the ground.

At least the exhaust was recently done so it won't be too difficult to unbolt.  Oh, yeah- the exhaust snakes through the whole stupid rear end.

berkeleying British engineers.  

EDIT:  I just found this, which is somewhat helpful, though not what I wanted to hear.  LOL

https://forums.jag-lovers.com/t/saloon-lovers-3-8s-rear-brake-removal/30251/4

 

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
8/16/22 11:22 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/16/22 12:00 p.m.

In reply to yupididit :

Thanks.

93gsxturbo
93gsxturbo UltraDork
8/16/22 1:38 p.m.

I watched them pull one of these rear ends apart on Wheeler Dealers and that was enough to make me swear off this nonsense for good.  To get the rotors out the whole dang thing came apart down to the smallest components.

Carl Heideman
Carl Heideman
8/16/22 1:49 p.m.

I haven't worked on a sedan in a long time, but we regularly see E-types at Eclectic and we always drop the whole assembly out for service.  It's just a few bolts, the brake lines, usually the exhaust, and the drive shaft. We also install remote bleeders for the calipers as they're very hard to bleed any other way.  With E-types, we usually see several frozen caliper pistons, presumably because the brakes never get bled because it's so hard to bleed them without remote bleeders.

And you do want to buy a manual. We like the factory ones--well written (once you understand the Queen's English) and very useful.

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/16/22 2:17 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Madness and pain plus hours upon hours of labor if you fail to drop the rear end.  
      I'm fat old and slow yet it's  less than an hour to drop and shorter to replace.   
    
Once  dropped it's so easy to work on that the temptation is to take it apart and detail it.  Resist that temptation.  
   If rotors need replacement just drop the axles and replace.  It really is sooooo much simpler  seperate from the car.  
  Do clean up and lubricate the parking brake assembly.   
      

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/16/22 2:24 p.m.
93gsxturbo said:

I watched them pull one of these rear ends apart on Wheeler Dealers and that was enough to make me swear off this nonsense for good.  To get the rotors out the whole dang thing came apart down to the smallest components.

Wrong!!!   To replace the disks just drop the axle assembly's at the u-joint flange.  No need to pull the suspension apart.   
       However, if you want to detail the rear end, or you can feel looseness in the assembly and you do pull it all apart.  You will find 3-4 needle bearings worn out on each arm because of failure to lube.  Both inner and outer forward and aft  total of 8 sets of bushings.  That really is a nightmare.  Rather than buy those expensive, time consuming parts I chuck some brass in the lathe and make  new bushings.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/16/22 2:37 p.m.

Okay, OK, y'all win.  I'll start pulling the exhaust tonight and the rest of the brake lines, and prep the whole bloody thing for removal.  I already have a new set of rotors sitting on my shelf, good opportunity to stick those in.  

Will update progress here.  

jr02518
jr02518 HalfDork
8/16/22 2:40 p.m.

Rebuilding the calipers are another issue I will be following!

An suggestions? 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UltraDork
8/17/22 10:58 a.m.

Leave the wheels on the hubs when you drop it down. Then you can roll it away. I have done a dozen. Also I wish I had done the remote bleeders on those...

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 11:15 a.m.
jr02518 said:

Rebuilding the calipers are another issue I will be following!

An suggestions? 

Buy the kit from Rock Auto if they have your size.   I've worked on 1&3/8 -2&1/2 Moss motors will if Rock Auto doesn't. 
 It's a simple rebuild, 4 bolts hold a side on ( SAE not metric)  use air to pop the piston out. Then hone the rust away.  Easy peasy.   If you can feel the bleeder start to twist without coming out?  Use heat and penetrating fluid.  Then replace the or buy the remote bleeder kit. I use a touch of anti- sieze  ( only on the threads) in reassembly. 
    

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 11:23 a.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

The only real hard part will be popping the trailing arms off.  It's easiest if you pop those off first 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/17/22 12:45 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Holy berkeley those trailing arms were the worst. I undid every bolt on them and was still pouring over them trying to see if I missed one. Ended up using a 3' pry bar, and still broke the rubber off before the dome shaped deal came off. So I still need to get that off the car, on the one side anyway. 

The stupid tiny bolts holding the rubber chevrons on were a PITA too. The rubber had deformed and partially blocked the bolt heads, so I had to pry the bolts off, while raising and lowing the car on the lift to find the sweet spot of pressure.

I can't imagine trying to do this job without a lift. As it is I'm shuddering at the thought of having to reassemble it all.

After almost 2 hours of cursing last night, the rear is down. I had to unbolt the exhaust and lower it with the rear, and then extract it once the rear was on the ground. 

Now to tear into this monstrosity. Do I unbolt and remove the metal frame over the whole thing first?  As long as it's down I'm tempted to do as much as I can- dampers, rotors, parking brakes, calipers, etc. Moss is about to get a big order. 

And yes, I did order a copy of the Queen's Shoppe Manual.

 

MiniDave
MiniDave Reader
8/17/22 12:48 p.m.

Be sure to keep everything in exact order as it comes off if you're going to remove the cage, the thru bolts on the bottom are shimmed to fit.

Also note that the top bolts into the diff are safety wired.

When I reinstall the fronts of the trailing arms, I give the metal to metal interface a good coating of grease so next time it will come apart - not that I ever wanted to take it apart again, but it happens. In my case I changed the diff ratio to 3.07 vs the 3.477 it came with - should have done that in the first place! 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 5:21 p.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Holy berkeley those trailing arms were the worst. I undid every bolt on them and was still pouring over them trying to see if I missed one. Ended up using a 3' pry bar, and still broke the rubber off before the dome shaped deal came off. So I still need to get that off the car, on the one side anyway. 

The stupid tiny bolts holding the rubber chevrons on were a PITA too. The rubber had deformed and partially blocked the bolt heads, so I had to pry the bolts off, while raising and lowing the car on the lift to find the sweet spot of pressure.

I can't imagine trying to do this job without a lift. As it is I'm shuddering at the thought of having to reassemble it all.

After almost 2 hours of cursing last night, the rear is down. I had to unbolt the exhaust and lower it with the rear, and then extract it once the rear was on the ground. 

Now to tear into this monstrosity. Do I unbolt and remove the metal frame over the whole thing first?  As long as it's down I'm tempted to do as much as I can- dampers, rotors, parking brakes, calipers, etc. Moss is about to get a big order. 

And yes, I did order a copy of the Queen's Shoppe Manual.

 

To do brakes?   No way!  Leave the cage on in place. 
   
Just pop off the calipers. Unbolt the u joint flange and then take off the  the disks. Put on the new disks rebuild the calipers and bolt the calipers  back in place.  
    The only time you remove the cage  is if you intend to completely replace all the  needle bearings in the suspension!!!

 Did you read my instructions?   Use a chisel.  A really big chisel. I took a picture of the one I used.  Slam with a big hammer on one side slam with the same hammer and chisel on the other side if it failed to pop off with the first. 

  As far as removing bolts, there is one 9/16 in the center of the front of the trailing arm.   That's the only bolt you need to remove.  
   The horizontal bolts if they'd never been off will have locking tabs on them.  And even if rusty tap out easily with a little penitrating fluid.  
 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 5:34 p.m.
MiniDave said:

Be sure to keep everything in exact order as it comes off if you're going to remove the cage, the thru bolts on the bottom are shimmed to fit.

Also note that the top bolts into the diff are safety wired.

When I reinstall the fronts of the trailing arms, I give the metal to metal interface a good coating of grease so next time it will come apart - not that I ever wanted to take it apart again, but it happens. In my case I changed the diff ratio to 3.07 vs the 3.477 it came with - should have done that in the first place! 

If you count the teeth you'll find it's 3:54 or 3:31 or 3:07 or 2:88. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltimaDork
8/17/22 5:37 p.m.
frenchyd said:

To do brakes?   No way!  Leave the cage on in place. 
   
Just pop off the calipers. Unbolt the u joint flange and then take off the  the disks. Put on the new disks rebuild the calipers and bolt the calipers  back in place.  
    The only time you remove the cage  is if you intend to completely replace all the  needle bearings in the suspension!!!

  frenchyd before the whole ass end was already out of the car said:

  But do not attempt to replace the brakes without pulling the rear end.   
 Madness  lives that way. That and bloody hands. 
    It will take you less than an hour to pull it.  And even shorter to put it back in.  

Amazing.

AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter)
AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 5:44 p.m.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

amazing amazing, or amazing you gave conflicting recommendations?

i read Frenchy's instructions as "drop rear to replace calipers and rotors, but do not remove the cage from the rear after you drop it."

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltimaDork
8/17/22 5:45 p.m.

In reply to AngryCorvair (Forum Supporter) :

I read it as conflicting but it's possible I'm not up on my Jaguar terminology.  Just watching from the sidelines makes me want to stay away from British cars forever.

You know what, might as well get educated- is this what I'm missing?

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 5:54 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

While you are waiting for parts from Moss.  clean the splines both on the hub and on the wheels. Then put some anti sieze on both the spines on the wheel and the hub but be careful not to put it on the tapered area of the hub or the tapered area of the knock off. Yes anti sieze the threads of the knock off and the hub.    
  There is a dust cap on top of the aluminum casting.  Pop that off. And look down in there.  There needs to be a gap between the grease and the top of the casting but if the bearings are showing fill it  until it's about an inch short of the top of the casting with clean wheel bearing grease.   Then  do the same to the other side.  
  You'll also want to grease the u- joints (4)  and all the suspension bushings.  
    If you take off the coil shocks. Run the axle  assembly up and down.  Likely you'll feel a flat spot at what is normal ride height.   A little is acceptable.  If it feels sloppy  you might want to order new needles and bushings. Because  it wasn't greased regularly  and 3-5 needles are flattened out.  Most needles will still be OK  so only order 20 needles not all of them. You'll also need bushings both inner and outer.   
     Here is where some judgement is called for.  This is going to get expensive.  I've driven some pretty horrible cars with this problem and you really don't notice the problem except going over railroad tracks at an angle.  
  I should still have some needles around someplace and decent usable bushings if you want them.  Same with the trailing link rubber bushing.   Not new but sure useable. 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 6:06 p.m.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

Yes. The cage ( yellow) is what the whole rear end assembly ( red) is bolted to.   
   If I was doing that and I weren't 74 and A fatty.  I could do the brakes in about 2 hours.   I'd spend close to another hour cleaning up and greasing the parking brake assembly.   
  But that parking brake assembly works so nice and smooth it's almost sensual.  If it's clean, greased and properly adjusted. It's a "Fly Off"  type  you pull it up and let it go  and it drops back out of the way. Then when you're ready to go you pull up on the handle until you hear a little click then let go of the handle as your foot feels the clutch engage.  Wonderful especially on hills etc.  really makes you look Brilliant.  

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