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¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltimaDork
8/17/22 6:09 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Then I was completely missing the distinction, apologies for my incorrect interpretation of the instructions given.

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 6:16 p.m.

In reply to ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :

No need to apologize.  I'm probably not very good at writing about how to do things.    What is so clear in my mind probably comes across like translated stereo instructions.  I'm sorry. 

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ UltimaDork
8/17/22 6:30 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

It makes perfect sense knowing the distinction between "removing the cage from the rear" and "removing the rear from the car."

Are the axles what keeps the rear camber where it's supposed to be or is there another missing link?

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/17/22 9:56 p.m.

You are right,  the axles start the camber curve . The lower arms are then what define the actual camber curve.  
The street version uses the rubber mounts to deal with the conflict  between the arc of the axle and the arc of the trailing link. 
   On a race  car the trailing link has to go to in inner lower pivot point. They do that by going forward at a 45 degree angle until it intersects with the lower mounts  forward about 2&1/3 feet.  Thus preventing the rear axle to toe in or out. 
   
   If everything is rigidly mounted in stock form there is no rear suspension.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/19/22 9:23 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

"Did you read my instructions?   Use a chisel.  A really big chisel. I took a picture of the one I used.  Slam with a big hammer on one side slam with the same hammer and chisel on the other side if it failed to pop off with the first. "

No, I didn't see your picture before removing the rear end.  I'll try a chisel on the dome that's still clinging to the chassis.  If that fails I will try some hot wrench.  I didn't get a chance to get out to the garage the last 2 nights, and probably won't tonight (taking the kids to the fireman's carnival).  Next step is to get the calipers out of there.  I also really want to replace the dampers as long as I have it down.  Any trick to doing that without removing the cage?

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/19/22 3:16 p.m.

On the positive side, I knocked that dome off the chassis. Phew

But how in the bloody hell does this come apart???

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/19/22 8:36 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

Don't remove the cage.  Not unless you have access to a lathe.  Trust me, dealing with those those needle bearings  even when you have  a whole lot of spares on hand to work with is not fun at all. 
  OK. See if the lower through bolt on the shocks  will come  come loose.  If rusty try soak in penetrating oil.  get one nut off  then take a center punch  and tap it in going across.  Have the suspension at full droop. As  soon as you're past the pin  the shock will fall. Then go to the other side and repeat. 
 The top shaft  works the same way but without the spring tension it's easier.  But do not do it top first.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/19/22 9:38 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

The dampers I can figure out. I meant, how the hell is that trailing arm held in there?  The bushing is shot and I need to replace it. But it appears as though the whole mess is welded together with a nut screwed on in the end for no good reason. 

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/19/22 9:47 p.m.

You know you are dealing with a thing designed by arrogant twats who thought they were the whole damn thing, and assembled by rebellious communists, right?  

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/19/22 11:11 p.m.

In reply to Streetwiseguy :

Those arrogant twats won LeMans 24 hour race 7 times on a budget impossibly tiny. Developed, grew,  Kept a business alive With some of the finest cars ever. Jaguar XK120 D type Jaguar   Jaguar XKE  (The car that even Enzo Ferrari said was the most beautiful car ever produced). the XJ6 &12  etc.  

  Oh and won a NASCAR RACE TOO ! 

ShawnG
ShawnG MegaDork
8/19/22 11:15 p.m.

I knew what was happening the minute I saw the thread title.

Glad I was not disappointed.

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/20/22 9:11 a.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

The cross bolt holding the trailing arm in is clearly visible I think it's like a 9/16ths 4-5 inches long.   It has a locking tab on the bolt so if you clean the grease off you'll see what part is the locking tab . Pull out the bolt completely  out and the trailing arm drops away.  The rubber bushing itself is   bonded to a steel tube pressed  It might be a little rusty so give it a good soaking with WD 40  and just tap the rubber bushing sideways through the mount.   
 

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 UltraDork
8/20/22 12:06 p.m.

It is just nuts and bolts, designed by people who had cheap labor on the assembly line.  There was never any consideration of the factory or the customers cost of time.  Lock tabs were a thing throughout English industry, dig them out of the dirt to find the hex.  Pull the long stud that holds shock lowers all the way out of the control arm and no-sieze it heavily within the arm on reassembly please.

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/20/22 7:38 p.m.

The Queen's shop manual arrived via post today; much poring was done, many questions answered. 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/20/22 11:10 p.m.
TurnerX19 said:

It is just nuts and bolts, designed by people who had cheap labor on the assembly line.  There was never any consideration of the factory or the customers cost of time.  Lock tabs were a thing throughout English industry, dig them out of the dirt to find the hex.  Pull the long stud that holds shock lowers all the way out of the control arm and no-sieze it heavily within the arm on reassembly please.

Workers in England building Jaguars went through a whole series of work rules while management, lived cushy lives with much bigger paychecks.    For example when John Egan tried to turn Jaguar from a loosing company that lost of $500 million dollars a year into a profitable company  one of the first things he did was close the management cafeteria.  It saved something like 8 million dollars a year.   And took away other management perks. Saving many 10's of millions more.  
     Then they did things like standardize windshield sizes and saved 3 million more.  Eventually taking over the shop producing the body and building them to one standard instead of combinations of standards.  That saved them further millions. 
   Labor started out as hourly workers building to a standard in spite of variations supplied.  When BLMH  took over they insisted workers were paid piecemeal regardless  of variations applied.  In The end it amounted to a 20% reduction in pay even if they could produce at their previous rate.    And payment per piece was going down according to schedule.  Hence all the strikes.  When BMHL took all of Jaguars reserve Capitol and left them with no funds to develop new cars they then sold Jaguar back to Jaguar expecting them to die.  £500 million a year loss. 
Egan managed to pull it off and eventually sold it to Ford for 3&1/2 Billion or something like that.  
     

Streetwiseguy
Streetwiseguy MegaDork
8/21/22 8:09 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm pretty sure that's what I said a few posts above...

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/22 10:27 a.m.
volvoclearinghouse said:

The Queen's shop manual arrived via post today; much poring was done, many questions answered. 

It's really interesting the way different people learn.  When I started to work on Jaguars I just looked and took things apart.  I only referred to manuals for clearances and some torque specs. 
       Afterwards I rethink what I'd done and tried to figure out if there were better or more efficient ways to do the same task.  
  While others used shop manuals.  
   I don't think either way is best or the right way. It's just how people  think or do things. 
       To my way of thinking the British, Swedes, and Italians seem to do things somewhat along American lines of thought.  While the French, Japanese, and German  have their methods.  
     That's a pretty broad statement and doesn't account for differences in prices and goals of each individual company, new technology brought on by automation, Or cross proliferation.  
     

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/21/22 11:01 a.m.
Streetwiseguy said:

In reply to frenchyd :

I'm pretty sure that's what I said a few posts above...

Yes you did. Short and concise.   I just tried to fill in to provide a little more complete picture. 
      But that was a period in British history where they went from entitlement based on birth to based on achievement's.  Yes there were strikes just as there were strikes in America earlier.   

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/22/22 12:13 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Most systems on most cars I've been able to figure out but simply taking them apart.  I've owned this Jag for years now without benefit of the manual. But there's things in this rear end that are simply...non intuitive. At least to me. Like the way the dampers are held on, with the cross bolt one needs to "drift" out, per the manual. 

Perched the rear up on stands, for ease of servicing. 

Got the parking brakes and calipers off last night, the pads on the parking brakes were thick, but disintegrated, probably due to the exhaust heat. 

I took lots of pictures of the disassembly. The auto-adjust mechanism is fairly clever, though a bit parts-heavy. 

The calipers have some broken pieces, and the passenger side parking brake mechanism also has some broken hard parts. So it looks like I'll be sourcing remanufactured calipers and probably a spare parking brake unit for the one side. 

Jaguar mentions in the manual exchanging the entire rear end unit for factory refurbishment. Anyone know where I mail it to?  cheeky

NOHOME
NOHOME MegaDork
8/22/22 12:48 p.m.

 

So glad this thread came along. The owner of the Healey that I am working on has an E-type that he wants to bring in after the 3000 is done. 

 

Based on this thread, methinks I shall politely decline.  

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/22/22 2:13 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME :

As long as he's willing to pay per hour, and understands that the whole rear needs to come down. It's really not -too- bad, now that I've wrapped my brain around the engineering mindset here. Big difference from Volvo stuff from the 60s.  

It took me about 2 hours to drop the rear, using the lift, and another 2 hours last night to get the calipers and parking brakes off and apart. I expect I'll have another 3 or 4 hours getting the discs and trailing arms off. Then ballpark twice as long again to fix everything and get it back together. By the time I'm all done this will be a 30+ hour job. I'm sure you can work faster than I can, but anyway you slice it there's 4 figure money just in labor, at shop rates. 

frenchyd
frenchyd GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
8/22/22 2:37 p.m.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse :

You want my used calipers and e brake?  Pay for shipping and they are yours. 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/22/22 2:41 p.m.

Also, E type spares seem easier to get than those for sedans. Why Jag decided to make things like brake calipers different I've no idea, and they don't seem to be interchangeable. 

volvoclearinghouse
volvoclearinghouse PowerDork
8/22/22 2:42 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I may take you up on that. I just ordered replacement parts for parking brake. If the shop I take the calipers to won't touch them because they're beyond hope, I may need yours for rebuildable cores. Thank you. 

Edit: if yours are for E type I don't think they'll work. The Dunlop's on the 3.8s seem to be a different bird, and don't seem to be interchangeable. 

Trent
Trent PowerDork
8/22/22 4:51 p.m.
NOHOME said:

 

So glad this thread came along. The owner of the Healey that I am working on has an E-type that he wants to bring in after the 3000 is done. 

 

Based on this thread, methinks I shall politely decline.  

 

If you have never done one before, don't. The metal work on an E-type will be more complicated than you can imagine. We do 3 E-types a year and I have special jigs made up for the bonnets and front superstructure. Just aligning the bonnet to the car properly can be a 40 hour time suck. 

Mechanically, Yeah they still suck. It is as if the designers waged war on future mechanics that might service them. 

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