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pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture PowerDork
12/17/15 9:23 a.m.
Kreb wrote: In CA, vintage events often coincide with smog regulations. 1975 and earlier requires a PCV valve and nothing else. Post 1975 and it has to be entirely compliant to the year of manufacture. So if you wanted to run those events in a Mustang, it'd have to be Mustang II or earlier. BTW - 60s ponycars are other possible candidates for the list.

Yeah, after the initial post I noticed that the Snowball is the only pre-1980 event, the others are all pre-1976. Eliminates a fair number of options, but not ALL of them.

oldeskewltoy
oldeskewltoy UltraDork
12/17/15 9:33 a.m.

pick up 73-77 Celica (toughest part because finding a good one may be tough....) $1000-$2500

ebay, pick up 3SGE Beams(200hp 165#/ft), and J160 - $1500

pick up Supra mkI disc brake rear - $500

Since the AE86 and the Celica are about 80% the same... much of the AE86 aftermarket will work on an earlier Celica - $1500

OR

pick up 18RG and W58 if you need to keep it vintage. 18RG can make 150hp relatively easily... BUT... cost for the 18RG, w58, and the cost to make it to 150hp will likely exceed $2500

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture PowerDork
12/17/15 9:36 a.m.
kb58 wrote:
Tyler H wrote: There's been a huge horsepower increase at HPDE since 2006. It's a parade of Z06 (3 generations,) 911s, E9x M3s, etc. It's frustrating (to me, at least) to get blasted in a well-driven low-hp car, by a poorly driven 400hp rocketship that's taking full advantage of traction control and is faster on any line any time. Except where they brake early, early apex, and then disappear into the distance after a very ugly track out.
Agreed, we used to do HPDEs in the late 1980s and 1990s. Back then everyone worked on their own cars and there were very few really fast cars - you did well be *driving* well. Having recently returned to the events however, things are... different. Now it seems normal to buy a Z06, Porsche, BMW, or something with >400hp. If the car is modified, it's typically by a shop and not the owner. Few seems to work on their cars any more and there's a definite drop in camaraderie, sort of an unspoken "I've got my bad-ass ready-made car here so I don't need any 'help' from you guys." Or that's the impression at least.

I only started running HPDEs a few years ago but that impression matches up with what I've seen. The last event I ran at Road America, I showed up in my mildly-prepped 330ci and was shooting the E36 M3 with a dude in an Audi TT, some guys with a built E36 325is, a Spec Miata guy, a MS3 guy and a dude with an Abarth. Almost everyone else was in a P-car, Viper, Ferrari, Z06, etc that showed up as a marque-specific club and only talked to their own types.

The Corvette guys were the worst, they would always blow right past you on the main straight going into turn one and then stand still in the infield section as they gingerly took corners to avoid dirtying their wax jobs, and they would never point you by until they got blue flagged multiple times. At least the Viper guys drove hard, although they wrecked into each other TWICE over the course of the weekend. It's a weird feeling to see multiple tow trucks go by carrying 2x your yearly income in smashed Viper. I don't believe that group has been asked back.

Kreb
Kreb UltraDork
12/17/15 9:45 a.m.

Drifting a little of topic here, NASA was one of if not the first groups to run HPDEs. Here in the Northern California region, they're having trouble with attracting new drivers. The main reason appears to be that people don't want to work their way through levels 1-4, with level 1 being really slow by most enthusiasts standards, and 2 being really restrictive in passing. The other reason is that while they used to be one of the cheaper providers, now there are sub-$100 organisations. I don't think that they can compete on price, because those cut-rate providers shave prices by running loosey-goosey events (that's a rant for another day), but.... it strikes me that as the HP ante has been raised so far there's an opening for events that allow for experienced drivers in slower cars who don't want to be blitzed by GT3 Porsches and R6 Corvette's. I think that I'm going to contact the local office and suggest another class. Those GRMers who feel similarly should pressure their local event sponsors as well.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/17/15 11:59 a.m.

I agree with you Kreb.. who wants to go out onto a track in what, 5 years ago, was a fast car.. only to get passed by every mustang, Camaro, challenger, and every 4 door out there with 300+ hp.

I would not want to be driving a Miata in the middle of that pack

WildScotsRacing
WildScotsRacing Reader
12/17/15 12:13 p.m.
mad_machine wrote: I agree with you Kreb.. who wants to go out onto a track in what, 5 years ago, was a fast car.. only to get passed by every mustang, Camaro, challenger, and every 4 door out there with 300+ hp. I would not want to be driving a Miata in the middle of that pack

Depends on the Miata and who is driving it, and the track. There is a video of a Spec Miata glued to the rear bumper of a late model Z06 at Hallett. The Vette was being quite well driven and would gain ground on the straights, but after 2 full laps of the Miata being in his chili through every multi-turn sector he gave a point-by, after which he fell further behind each lap. The Spec Miata was putting maybe 125 horsepower to the ground.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/17/15 1:51 p.m.
Kreb wrote: Drifting a little of topic here, NASA was one of if not the first groups to run HPDEs.

Huh?

AROC had been doing tack days since before NASA as a car club was even born. Heck, AROC predates NASA, the space agency, by a year. (and yes, I am aware of NACA)

NASA the car group started HPDE's in '91.

Kreb
Kreb UltraDork
12/17/15 2:12 p.m.

In reply to alfadriver:

I stand corrected, but that doesn't change my point one whit.

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/17/15 2:19 p.m.
Kreb wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I stand corrected, but that doesn't change my point one whit.

Well, as pointed out, AROC is one of the many car clubs that have HPDE's, and any reasonably performing 70's era car will fit right in with most Alfas on a track. The target of a stock Miata is perfect for most AROC track drivers.

And I know there are events at Road America, Blackhawk Farms, Gingerman, Autobahn, and Grattan which are all in the Chicago region.

kb58
kb58 Dork
12/17/15 2:40 p.m.

Anyway... when I got started, it was with the Alfa Romeo Owners club, a great group of people. Unfortunately, giving the make, it's rare that an Alfa shows up, replaced by a lot of the aforementioned fast cars.

Anyhow, sorry for hijacking this thread. Yeah, if the OP wants a street-legal car in CA and also run it in vintage events, it'll be tough to modify if it's >1975. I change my vote to something <1975 with a V8.

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture PowerDork
12/17/15 2:46 p.m.
alfadriver wrote:
Kreb wrote: In reply to alfadriver: I stand corrected, but that doesn't change my point one whit.
Well, as pointed out, AROC is one of the many car clubs that have HPDE's, and any reasonably performing 70's era car will fit right in with most Alfas on a track. The target of a stock Miata is perfect for most AROC track drivers. And I know there are events at Road America, Blackhawk Farms, Gingerman, Autobahn, and Grattan which are all in the Chicago region.

Just wondering, does AROC welcome non-marque vehicles to its events?

NOHOME
NOHOME UberDork
12/17/15 2:47 p.m.
pointofdeparture wrote:
NOHOME wrote: Skipped from first to last page, but what about C4 vette? It would be like the toilet paper of track cars. Dirt cheap to buy and once you go through and renew/update the suspension bits, there is no fear of wrecking it since you can unbolt the good stuff and repeat as necessary with a new chassis. If you cant make a Chevy v8 go fast for cheap, just turn in your car-guy card. The Miata might be the answer, but torque is a different addiction that the Miata dweebs will never discover.
Do people even read the TITLE of the thread anymore? Pre-1980, people! Jeez!

Guilty as charged!

But then again, what is with the pre-1980 requirement? I could maybe understand if you were trying to evade the electronics era, but that did ot really get going till the 90's Do you force yourself to write with a chisel and stone also?

Just move back one generation of Corvette to the C3 and the same answer applies. No matter what you do you are going to be a rolling chicane in hardware that old.

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture PowerDork
12/17/15 2:52 p.m.

In reply to NOHOME:

The pre-1980 requirement is to participate in vintage rallies like the Snowball Rally, Motherlode 400, etc, as mentioned in the first post. It has since been discussed that pre-1976 is really what we're shooting for here as well. But the goal isn't to drive something old for the hell of it (as if there's something wrong with vintage cars anyway?), it's for the sake of being eligible to join in a bunch of cool events.

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/17/15 3:12 p.m.

I put forth a 1975 Chevy Monza. Mainly cause my family had several during my high school years. My sister's nickname at school was spider woman because of the large black widow graphic on hers. Then there was the one we called Death Trap that we got freeish because my dad bailed out a family member who wrote a bunch of bad checks to pay a hooker. You would be the only one there with one and can build your own awesome stories like these.

GTwannaB
GTwannaB GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
12/17/15 3:36 p.m.

If you want full vintage, how about a Corvair?

pointofdeparture
pointofdeparture PowerDork
12/17/15 3:49 p.m.

Monza is actually a VERY interesting suggestion, didn't realize they were made that early, and they are much less valuable than a lot of the other neat American options...

I love Corvairs and know you can make them handle, but how hard is it to get one to go fast while staying air cooled?

racerdave600
racerdave600 SuperDork
12/17/15 4:31 p.m.

After reading all of this, the only real choice to me would be a 240Z, or maybe 280. You can still find non-pristine versions in your price range, and they are still fast enough to be fun, or can be made very quick. As a bonus they are easy on consumables and dirt simple to rebuild or modify. I drove a friend's old ITS car for a year and it is still one of the most rewarding track cars I've driven, and I've driven a bunch. It is a workout however.

Most of the problem with older cars is that the newer ones are sooooo much faster. Having something like the Z which is configurable to many budgets and speeds makes it ideal for this. Some of my other favorites listed here like the GTV or X1/9, not so much.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/17/15 4:37 p.m.
racerdave600 wrote: After reading all of this, the only real choice to me would be a 240Z, or maybe 280.

how come everyone forgets the 260z?

racerdave600
racerdave600 SuperDork
12/17/15 4:41 p.m.
mad_machine wrote:
racerdave600 wrote: After reading all of this, the only real choice to me would be a 240Z, or maybe 280.
how come everyone forgets the 260z?

I suppose for me at least, is because they are almost non-existent these days. They don't get much respect though.

Stampie
Stampie GRM+ Memberand Reader
12/17/15 4:52 p.m.
mad_machine wrote:
racerdave600 wrote: After reading all of this, the only real choice to me would be a 240Z, or maybe 280.
how come everyone forgets the 260z?

Nobody ever cares about the middle child.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/17/15 6:20 p.m.

Pinto started in 71. Should be able to make one turn for reasonable money.

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/17/15 6:24 p.m.

Volvo 142

https://seattle.craigslist.org/see/cto/5359855999.html

sesto elemento
sesto elemento Dork
12/17/15 6:41 p.m.
oldeskewltoy wrote: pick up 73-77 Celica (toughest part because finding a good one may be tough....) $1000-$2500 ebay, pick up 3SGE Beams(200hp 165#/ft), and J160 - $1500 pick up Supra mkI disc brake rear - $500 Since the AE86 and the Celica are about 80% the same... much of the AE86 aftermarket will work on an earlier Celica - $1500 OR pick up 18RG and W58 if you need to keep it vintage. 18RG can make 150hp relatively easily... BUT... cost for the 18RG, w58, and the cost to make it to 150hp will likely exceed $2500

Came here to say this. My ra29 celica was really good in stock form, I used to play around with my buddies in their miatas and it was right in the hunt with bolt on equipped ones in stock form (aside from springs and star spec. What a cool car, always drew big attention everywhere it went too

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/17/15 6:42 p.m.

actually.. the more I read about that 142, the more I want it.. They make awesome race cars.

sesto elemento
sesto elemento Dork
12/17/15 6:56 p.m.

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