1 2 3
44Dwarf
44Dwarf UltraDork
4/21/16 6:18 a.m.

If you can follow direction I have a Bridgeport and a rotary table you can use but will have little / no use of my arms for a few months. You'd have to bring the hubs up to north central mass along with a 6 pack of some sort of local microbrew.

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
4/21/16 9:43 a.m.
It's actually not that simple. Some hubs aren't machined flat on the backside and have thinned areas between the stock lugs...you're not going to want to drill and tap those (or press in studs).

I did anyway. Nothing 'dealbreaker' ever happened. I still have the car.

WatanabeWannabe
WatanabeWannabe New Reader
4/21/16 10:52 a.m.
patgizz wrote: http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/drill-guides-to-change-wheel-lug-patterns.659626/ i bought my bolt pattern change drill guide from him. my datsun has a ford 4.25" pattern rear hub and i'm going to change it to match the front. his jig is very nicely made and it comes with bits. i emailed him, told him the pattern i had and the one i wanted to go to and i had a setup within a week.

This looks awesome. Should be useful if I have to redrill rotors too.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
4/21/16 12:53 p.m.
jamscal wrote: It's actually not that simple. Some hubs aren't machined flat on the backside and have thinned areas between the stock lugs...you're not going to want to drill and tap those (or press in studs). Narrower pattern may also cause interference issues.

GSL-SE don't have "hubs" in the front, they have cast rotor assembles, and they are in fact scalloped 45 degrees off of the existing studs.

4x4.5 wheels are very common, easy to find. Nissan and Mitsubishi used them for a very long time. Heck my Volvo is 4x4.5, can easily share wheels with the RX-7.

Gasoline
Gasoline SuperDork
4/21/16 1:02 p.m.

I DIY. I have used (and have a couple) of the Rotten Leonards' tools. I was skeptical about being precise but they turned out perfect and I am very happy.

http://www.rottenleonard.com/Menu.html

WOW Really Paul?
WOW Really Paul? MegaDork
4/21/16 3:48 p.m.

Usually it is the 4x110 guys redrilling their hubs to 4x100, but they haven't seemed to have any issues when doing that

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
4/21/16 4:07 p.m.

Having a small 4 lug car and not being able to take advantage of the plethora of cheap 4x100 wheels in a huge range of styles is basically the worst thing ever. What makes it a little worse is that a lot of 4x100 wheels that are over 7" wide have 'stance' offsets which means if you run a bolt pattern adapter to get down to 4x100 you SERIOUSLY limit the amount of wheels that will stay inside your fenders.

Redrilling is almost a necessity if you want wheel selection with some of these goofy bolt patterns.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
4/21/16 4:56 p.m.

The other thing to bear in mind if you want to redrill, is you will also have to either turn down the pilot or open up the wheels. GSL-SE and other Mazda are something like 60-64mm pilot. Mazda 4x110 is 54mm, VW and Saturn are 57mm, and Nissan is 59mm because they just had to be bastards. No matter what there isn't a 100mm.

WatanabeWannabe
WatanabeWannabe New Reader
4/22/16 5:08 p.m.
Knurled wrote:
jamscal wrote: It's actually not that simple. Some hubs aren't machined flat on the backside and have thinned areas between the stock lugs...you're not going to want to drill and tap those (or press in studs). Narrower pattern may also cause interference issues.
GSL-SE don't have "hubs" in the front, they have cast rotor assembles, and they are in fact scalloped 45 degrees off of the existing studs. 4x4.5 wheels are very common, easy to find. Nissan and Mitsubishi used them for a very long time. Heck my Volvo is 4x4.5, can easily share wheels with the RX-7.

Took a front wheel off today and I see the scallops:

I really like the idea of drilling the new hubs myself using this tool: http://www.rottenleonard.com/Menu.html

I wonder if I can fill in the scallops with weld, resurface them on a lathe and drill new holes using the tool. I will need to figure out what the back of the rotor/hub assembly looks like.

If I sell my current set of wheels (one of which only fits 4x100 because the right bolt pattern was NLA) and replace them, I will inevitably have to get 4 tires mounted and balanced at $20 per, or $80. This hub drilling kit I'm imagining is around $100 like the ones quoted on the site. I can probably get a buddy to help with the welding and lathe work. When you take into consideration the loss of value in selling old wheels and buying new wheels, and the hassle of dealing with craigslist/ebay, redrilling these hubs is worth it. I'll just have to resurface the rotors instead of changing them out.

I might be going crazy, but I think 4x100 is worth the trouble. I'm having a hard time finding wheels in 4x114.3 with the right offset (+40 for 6.5 inch width, +35 for 7 inch width). Miata wheels (4x100) have about +42 offset, which is perfect. (I may be biased, I've had 2 Miatas.)

Lastly, I'm not quite sure I get the pilot issue. What I'm hearing is that the center bore on the hub (pictured) is too big on the RX to accommodate other wheels? Can it just be removed on a lathe or cleared with a small spacer? I don't see what purpose it has on lug-centric wheels.

Trackmouse
Trackmouse Dork
4/22/16 5:43 p.m.
Vigo wrote: Having a small 4 lug car and not being able to take advantage of the plethora of cheap 4x100 wheels in a huge range of styles is basically the worst thing ever. What makes it a little worse is that a lot of 4x100 wheels that are over 7" wide have 'stance' offsets which means if you run a bolt pattern adapter to get down to 4x100 you SERIOUSLY limit the amount of wheels that will stay inside your fenders. Redrilling is almost a necessity if you want wheel selection with some of these goofy bolt patterns.

Lol. What? 4x100 are fwd lug pattern. Rarely can you find that deep dish pizza in 4x100. Civics can't tuck 15x7 -0.

Knurled
Knurled MegaDork
4/22/16 6:31 p.m.
Trackmouse wrote:
Vigo wrote: Having a small 4 lug car and not being able to take advantage of the plethora of cheap 4x100 wheels in a huge range of styles is basically the worst thing ever. What makes it a little worse is that a lot of 4x100 wheels that are over 7" wide have 'stance' offsets which means if you run a bolt pattern adapter to get down to 4x100 you SERIOUSLY limit the amount of wheels that will stay inside your fenders. Redrilling is almost a necessity if you want wheel selection with some of these goofy bolt patterns.
Lol. What? 4x100 are fwd lug pattern. Rarely can you find that deep dish pizza in 4x100. Civics can't tuck 15x7 -0.

No, he's kind of right. The problem is that you generally cannot get very much more backspacing because of clearance reasons, so as you go wider, the offset must get lower. (Or rather, the backspacing must stay the same - another point in favor of using backspace instead of offset!)

So say you cannot have any more than 35mm offset on a 6" wide wheel, which is the case for my VW. If you want a 7" wheel, you need to lose 12.5mm of offset, typically this means a 25 or 20mm offset wheel. Or in my case, 4x100 to 4x4.5 adaptors and 40mm offset 15x7 wheels. (Yeah, I bought dual pattern wheels just so I could use adaptors from one pattern to the other... Silly, I know)

Another example: 12A cars had 25mm offset with stock 13x5.5 wheels. My Koseis were 0 offset and they still rubbed the springs in hard corners.

WatanabeWannabe
WatanabeWannabe New Reader
4/23/16 7:43 a.m.

Well, If the front hubs were easier to drill out I probably would have gone that route. I've changed my mind and am probably just going to buy some cheap wheels and tires; I want to get back in the driver's seat.

Knurled wrote: so as you go wider, the offset must get lower. (Or rather, the backspacing must stay the same - another point in favor of using backspace instead of offset!)

+1 to using backspace instead of offset.

WatanabeWannabe
WatanabeWannabe New Reader
6/22/16 2:18 p.m.

Wanted to update the thread with what I ended up doing:

Because I cannot afford the nice set of wheels this car deserves right now ($2000 for panasports!!!), I bought a custom hub re-drilling kit from rottenleonard for under $200. Using that, I redrilled the rear hubs and brake rotors to 4x100. In order to get the lug studs to fit closer in towards the center of the hub, I had to massage the back of the hub slightly with a grinder. My replacement wheel (in the same style as the one I broke, but dual drilled in 4x108 and 4x100 instead of the 4x114.3 the car originally came with) bolts up fine to the modified rear axles. Reverting to the stock bolt pattern is simple: just pull the calipers and rotors, tap the lug studs out, and put the original studs back in.

crankwalk
crankwalk GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/22/16 2:30 p.m.

That's interesting. With the Datsun world, 4x114 seems like we have endless wheels to choose from that just bolt on.

Vigo
Vigo PowerDork
6/22/16 10:15 p.m.
Rarely can you find that deep dish pizza in 4x100.

I dont know how i missed this in April but clearly you have not been paying attention to stanced out Hondas and older VWs. 8+ inch wide 4x100 wheels with deep outer lips are extremely common. Getting them to fit the cars without massive negative camber and tire stretch or huge E36 M3ty flares is basically impossible, but people seem to like it anyway. Problem is, take one of those wheels and run a bolt pattern adapter and pretty soon 3" of your wheel is outside the stock fender.

Jensen206
Jensen206 None
1/3/19 1:55 p.m.

In reply to WatanabeWannabe :

Glad to hear that worked out for the rears! How did the front hubs turn out? I have a GSL-SE in a similar state - the wheels I have are 4x100 and I'm weighing the options of investing $600+ redrilling the wheels, or just redrilling the hubs to Miata spec 4x100. I have fantasies about fitting various Mazda branded OEM wheels from Miata's on this beast.

I have cross drilled / slotted rotors from Mazdatrix, I'm concerned that welding and redrilling the rotor hubs will deform them, and they cost oh so much to replace. Did you have success with yours? Did you "fill and drill" or offset drill?

noddaz
noddaz GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/3/19 8:32 p.m.

Interesting.  Is there some other hub/rotor you can put on the car to give you 4x100?    Just asking..

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/4/19 5:05 a.m.

In reply to noddaz :

Not likely... it is integrated rotor/hub with tapered bearings.

 

I have ideas for using a hub that has preloaded bearings (like Miatas have in the front) but this would require finding a hub that had a bearing ID of the Mazda inner bearing, and machining a collar slip over the end of the spindle, and hope that the threads on the spindle are stout enough to handle the torque required for this type of beaing.  New problem:  The inner bearing's ID is large enough that I haven't been able to find a 4x100 hub that would fit.  Every 4x100 I have found dimensions for has a 28, 29, or 30mm spindle diameter and the inner bearing ID is significantly larger than that.

 

You'd have an easier time just adapting S13 Nissan uprights to the steering arms (they still have separate steering arms, no?) and since they share a 30mm spindle diameter, try using the rear hubs from a '91-02 Escort.

 

Not that I haven't compiled a short list of different hub bearing IDs or anything because I have an anti-love affair with non-preloaded bearings...

Alfaromeoguy
Alfaromeoguy Reader
1/4/19 4:55 p.m.

In reply to WatanabeWannabe :

Most don't because of this..Lawers...mosy gpod machine shops can do the if they dram it safe to do

Local guy here got his miata  hubs redrilled..damed sPell check  kept spelling Mata to moats.

Jensen206
Jensen206 New Reader
1/4/19 6:44 p.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

You'd have an easier time just adapting S13 Nissan uprights to the steering arms (they still have separate steering arms, no?) and since they share a 30mm spindle diameter, try using the rear hubs from a '91-02 Escort.

Now THAT's fluffing interesting. I like where you're going with this. Probably a complete unknown as to how that would affect hub placement / backspacing I suspect. Damn that could be a huge upgrade for FB owners looking to switch to adjustable coilovers. That's the biggest issue for coilover and big brake kits for this rig is the integrated front hub.

S13 front suspension:

 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/4/19 7:18 p.m.

In reply to Jensen206 :

A more tried and true option is Mazda3 ball joints, FC RX-7 uprights/struts, and Ford Escort/ZX2 strut mounts.  Need to drill the strut towers to fit the 10mm Escort studs vs. the 8mm SA/FB studs, and either open up the Escort mounts to fit the FC struts' D-shape pilot, or file down the FC struts to fit in the Escort mounts.

 

Or just put the whole damn FC front suspension under the car, which is what I did when I ran out of RX-7 uprights to bend because the spindles are weak.  You lose the great FB front end geometry and ability to run non-FC engines, but gain uprights that don't bend all the time, and struts you can change without complete front end disassembly.  (Goes much easier if you can source a '84-85 power steering column)

 

 

 

jnoiles
jnoiles New Reader
1/5/19 7:11 a.m.

http://www.spitfireengineering.com/

They're awesome.  I'm ordering a set of 4x100 hubs for my S1 Elise from them so I can expand the range of available wheels.  They'll make you whatever you need.  And top quality kit with awesome service too.

CJ
CJ GRM+ Memberand Reader
1/5/19 11:43 a.m.

Went to look at Rotten Leonard's site to see what re-drilling jigs they had and the website seems to be gone.  Just wondering if it is an issue with the host or if they are really gone.

wspohn
wspohn Dork
1/5/19 1:19 p.m.

Have to look at this from the machine shop point of view - if you were the owner and were asked to do a job for $100 or two that could wind you up spending tens of thousands in court if anything ever went wrong with the car, it would be a pretty easy decision.   Blame the lawyers - the general attitude (particularly in the US but also elsewhere) is that if something screws up it must be someone else's fault (never yours, or just a case of 'shzt happens') and you can always find a bottom feeding lawyer to do that for you.

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/5/19 6:14 p.m.

In reply to CJ :

They are gone.  The jig business was sold to someone else, you should be able to find them with a search.

1 2 3
Our Preferred Partners
Kyga8vZjsNikIFhTSduQ9spUy29Ca9jreHM8NbRqdv91IXJoS1vFzzecXXUhMbIh