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TurboFocus
TurboFocus HalfDork
6/10/21 10:47 p.m.

How late to this news am I? Anyone got the scoop on the chances it gets passed this time?

 

https://www.sema.org/epa-news

 

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
6/11/21 7:10 a.m.

Not sure but it looks like PFI Speed just got fined.

jharry3
jharry3 GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/11/21 7:57 a.m.

Is it time for Grassroots Motorsports to add a "Legislative Alert" page in the magazine to alert readers to the existing and pending restrictions to our hobby? 

I know that is a change to the business model but modifications are the life blood of the whole concept of Grassroots Motorsports and almost every advertiser sells equipment that is used to modify production vehicles for street or race use.

At the risk of going political (admin please don't ban me for this analogy) - welcome to Gun Owner's World.   Government has been trying to use administrative and legislative law to ban firearms and ammo for years.  This is in the name of Safety.   The same reason for wanting to ban modifications of production vehicles.  Its the old Ben Franklin Quote "Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". 

  • SEMA will have to use NRA tactics by rallying a large membership to become politically active.
  • Unfortunately in today's political climate its what is required just to maintain status quo.

 

 

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
6/11/21 8:28 a.m.

Yeah, I have been following the recent online chatter. SEMA is a great clearing house for this info, and we'll pass along what we can.

This is also a great example of why elections matter. The outcome can impact all sorts of things, down to car modifications. I'm not saying it's the only reason to vote, but no one magically put these people in power. 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
6/11/21 9:19 a.m.
jharry3 said:

Is it time for Grassroots Motorsports to add a "Legislative Alert" page in the magazine to alert readers to the existing and pending restrictions to our hobby? 

I know that is a change to the business model but modifications are the life blood of the whole concept of Grassroots Motorsports and almost every advertiser sells equipment that is used to modify production vehicles for street or race use.

At the risk of going political (admin please don't ban me for this analogy) - welcome to Gun Owner's World.   Government has been trying to use administrative and legislative law to ban firearms and ammo for years.  This is in the name of Safety.   The same reason for wanting to ban modifications of production vehicles.  Its the old Ben Franklin Quote "Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". 

  • SEMA will have to use NRA tactics by rallying a large membership to become politically active.
  • Unfortunately in today's political climate its what is required just to maintain status quo.

 

 

 

This post very much deserves an upvote, but for some reason, clicking the upvote button did nothing.  So I am giving it the attention it deserves by quoting it here and saying:  "This post deserves an upvote!!!!"

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/11/21 10:10 a.m.

I'll likely be in the minority within this population and this opinion.

 

The government regulation regarding modification to vehicles doesn't affect the hobby. It merely affects the rule set, It's no different from when the SCCA makes a change with regards to what's allowed within a class  or back when head and neck restraints became required or when ARA makes a change regarding cage design, halo seats or fire suppression. 

 

If everyone needs to play by the same rules, competition is still even and it's not affected. It's merely an additional expense to play. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/11/21 10:18 a.m.

In reply to jharry3 :

I referenced that other hobby without mentioning it by name in another thread. The issue is within the automotive hobby and that hobby, is we don't police each other enough. Then when stuff becomes obvious with regards to issues that affect others who aren't involved in the hobby and cause very real significant, measurable damage. People within the hobby grow up their hands and scream and complain about additional regulation or enforcement of existing regulations. 

 

Whereas if people within the hobby self police each other and called out those who are in violation of existing regulations and skirting the law, then additional enforcement measures by authorities wouldn't be necessary. But instead the inverse often happens, where someone who is skirting regulations is put on a pedestal and seen as cool or an authority and people want to know how they manage to do that and how they can do it themselves. Having that mindset invites the government to have to devote additional resources to enforce current regulations, and since the message that current regulations aren't working and additional regulations are needed. Both of the hobbies seem to really enjoy making their bed and then complain and throw a temper tantrum, like a toddler, when it's bedtime and they're forced to sleep in it. 

preach (fs)
preach (fs) HalfDork
6/11/21 1:14 p.m.
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Not sure but it looks like PFI Speed just got fined.

They did. 37 violations @ $4xxx per but can settle for $18k. All they did was resell Hondata piggybacks. VERY emotional video up on youtube.

Seems like they are going after the little guys rather than the big guys that probably have a lawyer division.

This sucks.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
6/11/21 1:22 p.m.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

I'll likely be in the minority within this population and this opinion.

 

The government regulation regarding modification to vehicles doesn't affect the hobby. It merely affects the rule set, It's no different from when the SCCA makes a change with regards to what's allowed within a class  or back when head and neck restraints became required or when ARA makes a change regarding cage design, halo seats or fire suppression. 

 

If everyone needs to play by the same rules, competition is still even and it's not affected. It's merely an additional expense to play. 

Your last sentence seems to ignore the learning curve.   Rollbars are a safety improvement that we learned by not having them.  Same with seatbelts and every other safety regulation. Yes there is cost to them. 
    As far as power modifications to dual purpose cars. They're against the law unless the creator of that modification goes through the process to make them street legal. 
 Off road vehicles ( race cars) have been given a exception because of the trivial  effect to the world. 
 Politicians only pay attention to two things.  Money, and popularity. As long as our sport retains a positive low profile it will be safe from political interference. 
  Massive numbers of innocent deaths  is exactly what attracts political attention. 

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf HalfDork
6/11/21 1:31 p.m.
jharry3 said:

Is it time for Grassroots Motorsports to add a "Legislative Alert" page in the magazine to alert readers to the existing and pending restrictions to our hobby? 

I know that is a change to the business model but modifications are the life blood of the whole concept of Grassroots Motorsports and almost every advertiser sells equipment that is used to modify production vehicles for street or race use.

At the risk of going political (admin please don't ban me for this analogy) - welcome to Gun Owner's World.   Government has been trying to use administrative and legislative law to ban firearms and ammo for years.  This is in the name of Safety.   The same reason for wanting to ban modifications of production vehicles.  Its the old Ben Franklin Quote "Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". 

  • SEMA will have to use NRA tactics by rallying a large membership to become politically active.
  • Unfortunately in today's political climate its what is required just to maintain status quo.

1 agreement, 1 not-so-much.

I agree having a "Legislative Alert" page here would be a useful idea. If I recall correctly others have had similar.

Not-so-much on the gun comparison – that is apples and bowling balls. This is for clarification not political content. The gun thing is a constitutionally granted right. Cars etc are not a constitutional right.

Vajingo
Vajingo HalfDork
6/11/21 1:53 p.m.
David S. Wallens said:
but no one magically put these people in power. 

define magic. 

Mr_Asa
Mr_Asa UberDork
6/11/21 2:06 p.m.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

It's merely an additional expense to play. 

Oh cool, so then it takes more money to get into the sport and its now even less inclusive.  Yes, that's acceptable.

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/11/21 4:42 p.m.

In reply to Mr_Asa :

How was it less inclusive if you have to run in a stock configuration when you have to purchase the car to compete in it anyway. People that are complaining about cost have already thrown away what came on the vehicle as it was legal in the first place. 

 

I'm not going to cry over needing to go to a junkyard to get a $34 ECU if I had previously jettisoned mine. 

 

Even if going through through a dealer and spending $8-1100 for an ECU, that's between a season or a weekend's worth of tires depending on the car in class. 

(This last comment isn't directed at you but is made in general) 

Yes the hobby is  expensive. If you're going to bitch about it find a new one. Because the truth is it can be done in a very budget-friendly manner, but you have to take time be selective and do a lot of the work yourself. A lot of people are crying because they're complacent lazy and want to do things the way they've always been allowed to before, whether was legal or not. 

 

Wake me when the EPA starts showing up at wheel of the wheel events and fining owners who are actually utilizing products as their design and stated use. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/11/21 4:47 p.m.

 

And to lighten things up, your move EPA...

frenchyd
frenchyd UltimaDork
6/11/21 5:45 p.m.
L5wolvesf said:
jharry3 said:

Is it time for Grassroots Motorsports to add a "Legislative Alert" page in the magazine to alert readers to the existing and pending restrictions to our hobby? 

I know that is a change to the business model but modifications are the life blood of the whole concept of Grassroots Motorsports and almost every advertiser sells equipment that is used to modify production vehicles for street or race use.

At the risk of going political (admin please don't ban me for this analogy) - welcome to Gun Owner's World.   Government has been trying to use administrative and legislative law to ban firearms and ammo for years.  This is in the name of Safety.   The same reason for wanting to ban modifications of production vehicles.  Its the old Ben Franklin Quote "Those who give up essential liberties for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety". 

  • SEMA will have to use NRA tactics by rallying a large membership to become politically active.
  • Unfortunately in today's political climate its what is required just to maintain status quo.

1 agreement, 1 not-so-much.

I agree having a "Legislative Alert" page here would be a useful idea. If I recall correctly others have had similar.

Not-so-much on the gun comparison – that is apples and bowling balls. This is for clarification not political content. The gun thing is a constitutionally granted right. Cars etc are not a constitutional right.

Our declaration put life as its highest priority ( life, liberty, pursuit of happiness, ) 

Way down at the bottom,  in an amendment is the second

docwyte
docwyte PowerDork
6/11/21 5:54 p.m.

Can't tell you how many people are installing cat less downpipes on all their cars.  Despite the fact that dyno's show that catted downpipes don't cost you any power. 

There are plenty of people, shops and manufacturers that are selling parts that are blatant violations and those guys need to pay the piper...

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/11/21 5:57 p.m.

Btw, The way to protect retailers of reflashes and aftermarket ECUs, is to pass a law where they can reach out to a state's department of motor vehicles and request confirmation whether a VIN is currently tagged and registered. 

 

99% of track only cars don't have current registration and tags. Require the owners to provide a VIN to the product seller and the seller of the product checks with the DMV and if it's clear, then sell away, you're good to go as a reseller. Now this doesn't stop end users from going to Pick-n-Pull's getting VIN numbers for the same application and purchasing products for an unregistered VIN that they don't actually own. However it absolves the resellers of responsibility and covers their asses. Due diligence would also be for the manufacturer to log the VIN numbers that have already had products sold to them so that the same VINs aren't reused multiple times to reopen the floodgates. 

 

They are easy solutions to this if people don't actually want to cheat and if these products are going to be utilized for their intended purpose

TurboFocus
TurboFocus HalfDork
6/11/21 7:32 p.m.

In reply to captdownshift (Forum Supporter) :

There are far more street strip or drivable cars used in competition than vice versa.

To me, it's baby steps. This is the first one.
I already signed it and for those who want to preserve the hobby and modifications, I think it's in their best interest to do the same.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
6/11/21 8:12 p.m.
preach (fs) said:
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:

Not sure but it looks like PFI Speed just got fined.

They did. 37 violations @ $4xxx per but can settle for $18k. All they did was resell Hondata piggybacks. VERY emotional video up on youtube.

Seems like they are going after the little guys rather than the big guys that probably have a lawyer division.

This sucks.

The big guys either figured it out or they got hit already. Like JEGS and Bully Dog did. Mostly, they figured it out. 

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/11/21 8:37 p.m.

In reply to TurboFocus :

Taking a car to the strip doesn't make it a race car. If it's not running in AHRA or NHRA, It is a street car that you happen to take to the strip. I don't care if it's run in your local drag strips 10.5 class bracket racing league that has a 10k pot for the winner of each season. That still a street car if you choose to have tags on it. Even if you only drive it to shows on a Saturday. Until you decide that it gets trailered to the track every time, That's not a race car. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
6/11/21 8:54 p.m.

It isn't necessarily a result of "elections matter" if you don't even know what the people you are voting for would consider.

And they won't consider anything from your perspective if you don't communicate that with elected officials, instead of just assuming that they know how you feel.

 

You know why it always seems like bids go to contractors who have had relationships in the past with politicians?  Because that's who they know.  You see this at all levels of any organization.  Hell, the times I have had to assemble a committee, I earmarked friends to help because that was the circle of people I knew who could do the needed job.

 

Back to this.  You have to make your voice heard for anyone to listen.  Otherwise it's the same as getting mad that your spouse didn't magically read your thoughts.

codrus (Forum Supporter)
codrus (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
6/11/21 9:46 p.m.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

The government regulation regarding modification to vehicles doesn't affect the hobby. It merely affects the rule set, It's no different from when the SCCA makes a change with regards to what's allowed within a class  or back when head and neck restraints became required or when ARA makes a change regarding cage design, halo seats or fire suppression. 

One big way in which it's different is that "power to weight" classes are fairly popular these days, where they basically let you do anything you want to the motor but you have to show them a dyno sheet.  Typically that means you're going to be taking a higher powered car and turning the power down to be legal, and that's something that's really only possible with programmable ECUs.

OldGray320i
OldGray320i GRM+ Memberand Dork
6/11/21 10:31 p.m.

My biggest problem with these regs is that they take away freedom of choice, and "polluters" are demonized. 

And please avoid the "well you can't choose to poison the air and water we all breathe and drink!" because that's just a red herring argument. 

Our hobby is infinitesimally small to begin with, and cars today burn 99% cleaner than 1970s cars (epa.gov, how ironic).   So all the "but one race car on the street polliting is equal to 100 normal cars!" means that even those terrible race cars with aftermarket ecu's are a drop in the bucket in terms of what they're putting in the environment.   Apparently, cars are half the entire population of pollutants, so the effect is smaller still.

Further still, a lot of these cars are not daily drivers.  Everybody runs afr gauges and I'd wager the majority are running cats.   The technology for making our cars faster is getting better, not worse.

The argument for stringent regulation is presented in the sexiest way possible to show how evil we all are. 

It's like the stupid pedestrian impact crap "In 2017, 5,977 pedestrians were killed in traffic crashes in the United States. That’s about one death every 88 minutes."  In a nation of 330 million people.  In how many gazillion miles driven.   And please, skip the "what of you were one of the 5,977?" it's another red herring.

It's not hard to fathom our hobby becoming the equivalent of the next "me too" movement, and our "betters" will tar, feather, dox us, and burn our houses down.  If you don't see that happening in about every area of traditional America, you're not paying attention. 

I'm not arguing that all regulation is bad, we've all benefited from them.  In this case I'm just seriously questioning that the previous regulations needed to be updated.   

captdownshift (Forum Supporter)
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
6/11/21 10:51 p.m.

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

I really don't buy that argument, as adding ballast weight to vehicles has been a thing since the beginning of motorsports. Heck people undershoot the minimum weight to be able to add ballast back to correct chassis balance and to create a lower center of gravity. 

chandler
chandler UltimaDork
6/12/21 7:09 a.m.
captdownshift (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to TurboFocus :

Taking a car to the strip doesn't make it a race car. If it's not running in AHRA or NHRA, It is a street car that you happen to take to the strip. I don't care if it's run in your local drag strips 10.5 class bracket racing league that has a 10k pot for the winner of each season. That still a street car if you choose to have tags on it. Even if you only drive it to shows on a Saturday. Until you decide that it gets trailered to the track every time, That's not a race car. 

Are you playing devils advocate? Do you really think the government should come get our toys if they don't meet their expectations?

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