Rx7 Kevin is having Rx8 Debate:

So I have made a listed and have checked it twice and I'm considering saving myself time and upgrading to an rx8 for rallycross/future potential stage rally abuse.

Long story short the rx7 needs front suspension, diff, trans and engine overhauled. So why don't I save myself the time and effort and just buy an rx8, gut it and replace the wheels tires?

It would have the better suspension, mechanical non breakable diff, more gears, newer engine with better power everywhere I want/need it in comparison and I don't have to do really any of the work of overhauling or making custom things of that nature.

So all thats left is well wheels and tires, I cannot find 16" gravel tires. Would purchasing new be an option? I'm not sure if I have even personally seen 16s. I usually buy mine off of used rally teams when I can and they are 15" or 14" commonly.

So thats the tire dilema, wheel dilem is that the rx8 has huge brakes, even if I "upgrade" to the automatic non GT model the front and rear have 11.9" rotors whereas a WRX has 11.6" rotors. Braid, speedline and team dynamics have wheels that are 15" and clear wrx brakes but I am not sure about the rx8. I would just go test fit them but hub bore on an rx8 is 67mm and the subies are quite smaller even if I find one the same 5x114.3. I have found some braids to test fit so I will keep you posted to see how that goes.

Rumor has it you need to do some grinding to some things to get 15"s to fit, but I find that BS. some initial fittery shows that with the proper inside diameter and offset it should be attainable.

one trade off is that the rx7 is better suited for rallyX whereas the rx8 would be a better stage car.

Thoughts opinions? or am I just nuts as always.

I have little to add except for some obscure tire knowledge- the General Grabber AT2 comes in 215/65r16, which should fit on an RX8 with very little, if any, clearancing. Maxsport also has "Autograss" tires in 205/55r16 which will absolutely fit, but you'd need to import them. I'm sure there are others, if you can tell me how tall a tire fits on an RX8 I may be able to give you some other ideas.

In reply to NONACK:

Stock Rx8 R3 wheels are 19" and come in 225/40-19 so thats about a 26" tire as is your General Grabber AT2 comes in 215/65r16. Rally tires would be more prefered but having beadlocks on a rx8 would be funny. I'm pretty sure XJs have alot of 16" wheels with a large hub bore and 5x114.3.

Finding maxsports are tough and importing them sucks especially doing both in 16"

Can you get the head clearance required for stage rally? The last time I read the rule book there were requirements for distance between helmet and cage. It was discussed that some cars can't meet those requirements without a very very short driver.

Subbed for plain awesomeness.

In reply to fidelity101:

Make the seat sit low in the cab! Basically it can only be done with a hard top. There is no way I can fit in there with sunroof as it is. I'll have to check the rule book on the requirements, I mostly just looked up gp2 v gp5 rules/stipulations.

Example: this is in the rulebook for new cages...

Accepted safety cages for new construction are: 1. Safety cages homologated by the FIA or a recognized ASN. 2. Safety cages that meet the specifications (for new homologations) of current FIA Appendix J Article 253, which requires CDS tubing. Refer to the following FIA web site for the current version of this document. 34 Although FIA Article 253.8.3 specifies the safety cage material as CDS, Rally America will allow DOM as an alternate material. When DOM is used, it must meet the minimum dimensions indicated in the table below. Material Minimum Tensile Strength Minimum Tubing Dimensions Use 1.75" x 0.095" Main rollbar, front rollbar, lateral rollbars or lateral half rollbars, their connection(s), and at least one continuous door bar per side Drawn over mandrel unalloyed carbon steel containing a maximum of 0.3% of carbon 350N/mm2 1.5 x 0.095" Other parts of the safety cage Existing rally vehicles with existing 2006 Rally America roll cages will continue to be legal for the foreseeable future. The safety cage standards that apply to these cars may be obtained from Rally America. Contact tech@rally-america.com for more information

I also did not see anything specific in the helmet section other than must meet xyz requirement/year. There is this small clause I found later down the rulebook:

Roll cage padding: Any portion of the roll cage which could come into contact with the driver or co-driver’s helmet during competition, including all bars in the plane of the roof and forward of the main hoop, shall be covered with energy absorbing material compliant with either the SFI 45.1 specification or FIA Standard 8857-2001 Type A.

What tires did they run on the Stage Rally RX-8 in Rally America?

I've got a cheap chassis I'd sell you.

Here is a list of the for sale: http://www.specialstage.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=549

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gALgrVxaGc5CCz116xjz9WCXGaH5Px2ot1e_Ff822uo/edit

That thing is still for sale? jeez, I wish I had 30k but then again Id buy a house with that cash. Based on the pocket books of that build I don't think 15s or 16s is much of an issue. I am comparing doing this vs continuing my rx7.

My roommate was willing to sell me his running rx8 for 3500, hard top w/ intake header back done to it. "needs a new engine" but honestly I've driven it. its got plenty of life in it left for me to beat the snot out of. He just gets a bit snooty with his level of autoX competition and such.

Update!

Having the US distributor for BRAID wheels live near you has its advantages...

Tried testing fitting these on the back of the rx8 last night. 15x7 with 67mm hub bore +35 offset. These are meant for a mitsubishi EVO 7/8/9.

Also it turns out stock rx8 brakes are larger than evo's

FAIL! hits upper suspension link:

hits the lower suspension link:

hits the brake caliper bleeder screw and banjo bolt:

However this wheel can be a 15x6 with an offset as low as +12. I have recieved paper copies of the prints and will do another test fit as well as his suggestion to add washers and see if it fits then measure the required ammount of washers to determine correct offset.

Haven't tried the front yet because its cold outside and I got used to my frankenwankel labratory in the basement. Also if the rears are impossible to fit (easier of the two) the fronts will be time wasted.

I'd stick with the RX7, but I'm biased. The devil you know and all that.

My train of thought is I can put a lot of effort into putting a renesis and 6 speed in my FC or similar ammount of cash and put wheels/tires on an 8 and call it a day.

What's the advantage of a Renesis over a built 13B? I totally get the rear diff thing though. The RX7 clutch type is not a hot setup.

Here is kind of the general thoughts on this idea but each one has its own balance requirement or some sort of trade off for rx7v8. Aside from some internal updates between a wankel and a renesis, alot of stuff can be swapped over with very little or no modification at all. So its not so much about the engine but the whole package.

1. With the renesis they have the 3 sets of intake valves that basically always keep you in your peak torque all the time.

2. EFI would be nice but then again my carb has done me no wrongdoings (except one time the float stuck for a min

3. stock its 200whp, intake/exhaust/streetport might yield you 220whp, its already near its power celing so you really don't have anywhere to go but FI or radical port which requires lots of money.

3.1 So that being said you can spend money on suspension and diff setup since your power will be just enough to have tons of fun and be competitive (perhaps)

1. Buying suspension parts for the rx8 is easy, everyone makes everything for them and they are all really awesome. (koni/bilstein)

2. the suspension is better, double a-arms vs shock. Only concern would be travel but will huge wheel wells and smaller wheels/tires it may be of no concern, or easily corrected with proper shocks/springs/valving.

3. They are literally the new rx7 and wrecked/used/abused ones are only about 1000 dollars more than an FC it seems. Their resale value is absolute garbage which makes it a win.

4. bolt in 4.777 diff with torsen LSD from S2 rx8, or if you go "nuts" just buy a clutch type and toss it in to one of those 4.777 units, stock rx8 is 4.444

The downside is that beside fitting 15s or finding 16 gravels, Body parts will be more expensive and the car is longer and wider which makes it better for stage rally vs rallycross.

1. If I wanted to make the jump to stage rally building my rx7 into a Gp2 to be able to run novice license classes for rally america would be expensive, or I just go travel farther and do NASA events.

2. Getting it prepped for G5 would be uncompetitive if someone actually brings a solid group 5 car. The rx8 would be a much better group 2 platform vs an rx7 because you are limited to stock port job for gp2

3. there is more competition in group 2 and a lot more entrants of a huge variety of cars.

Basically just gut an rx8, add safety equipment and its a gp 2 rally car (if the shoes fit). My rx7 has too many weird mods and sourcing factory stuff would cost money for a slower car which sounds dumb.

as you can tell I have been in much deliberation on this. Basically I need to ask myself do I want to build a stage rally car or a rallycross car.

Because right now I got a line on an rx8 trans setup for the 7 which would cost sub 600 plus adding a trans mount and extending the driveshaft 4 inches...

So if I did that trans swap that would make a reney powered FC easy in the future but make any realistic group 2 car out of the question. I'm not sure how competitive I would be as group 5 but I know it would be a blast.

however I am aware that buying a used rally car is a better idea but I don't want to rally an MK2 jetta. I pretty much don't know how to drive FWD...

Can you start stage rally in a RWD car? I was under the impression that you pretty much had to start with FWD to get your license.

You have to start with no turbo (in Rally America). In NASA you can have a turbo I believe. No restrictions on the drive wheels.

In that case, go with whatever has the cheapest replacement parts that you can throw a cage in.

Total complete badass awesome sauce.

If you can make 15” wheels fit I say do it. I can’t see a down side. What do you think the weight of a gutted 8 is Vs. your FC?

Assuming you can make 15”’s fit it strikes me a basically stock Rx8 is at or beyond the point of your developed Fc is and you can still develop and move forward from there. Heck, throw some snow tires on it and run in Stock to see where you are to start with.

With rotaries in Rally America to run group 2 you have to run stock ports. A gutted FC vs Gutted rx8 is probably a 200lb difference I imagine after a cage, if that. But then again I can always go lexan on my windows and that gap would widen pretty big.

In regards to cheapest replacement parts that will typically go to the FC. However more people are smashing or selling running driving rx8s for next to nothing I feel and at the same time the rx7 is becoming more rare due to age so certain parts are becoming harder to find.

One bonus on the FC though is that the chassis and rear suspension is beefy and can take some rally abuse, not to mention I would feel bad putting an rx8 into the trees, finding another FC shell would be cheaper than an rx8 shell.

I've pulled more than 300 pounds out of my FC so far and there's more to come - the doors are especially heavy even without glass. Haven't put it on a scale yet to see what the result is though. I'm confident a smartly trimmed FC RX7 can hang out around 2,000 pounds.

DaveEstey wrote: I've pulled more than 300 pounds out of my FC so far and there's more to come - the doors are especially heavy even without glass. Haven't put it on a scale yet to see what the result is though. I'm confident a smartly trimmed FC RX7 can hang out around 2,000 pounds.

If he wants to go Rally in the future he has to keep the door structure and crash beams stock.

Well maybe some other life priorties will get in the way (home ownership?) I just do a little clean up on the rx7 and rallycross the piss out of it. Then I can focus on stage rally and build a proper group 2 car the rx8 will be high up on the list. Or as long as we are talking about ficticious money, I would just buy brakes that would fit underneath 15"s

Might just overhaul the engine in the 7 (already got the piece to do it anyways) then swap in a new trans and replace the exhaust and call it a day. But then the diff is still tired and front shocks need replacing...

bollocks...

FYI - I have a friend who works at Turner Motorsports that can get me Konis and Bilsteins with a discount - including getting revalved by their guys.

Well another thought was back at the rx7 again. I posted this also on special stage, whats all your input?

fix the wheel/tire issue by getting an FC or turning one into a stage car or buying someones old stage car.

But what about a renesis in a earlier gen rx7? stock port rx8 engine. Here are some cuts from the rulebook. It seems legal...

so if its stock porting and naturally aspirated stock rx8 engine in an rx7 appears to be legal via the rules... go from 146hp to 232hp and have torque in palces that never existed with an S4 engine.

1308cc X 1.8 multipler = 2355 so still falls under 3080cc celing for GP2

I am not sure any stock port RX8 has ever made 232 hp.

From what I remember of my days on the RX8 fanboi sites, most people were dynoing around 180 to 190 with some mods.

As to what an FC weighs:

Our chump /lemons car has the doors gutted, the hood gutted, the headlights / motors / etc removed. The sunroof was removed and a piece of thin sheet metal is riveted in place. We have no hatch. The sound deadener was all removed from inside (when it was cold, with a hammer). We have no power steering, no A/C, no dash, no passenger seat, 15" wheels. Excess steel has been removed from underhood and trunk area.

The car DOES have the stock defrost system (heater core / box / blower). This weighs about 40# total.

Our car weighs 2450# without driver.

I am not sure an FC could get down to 2000# with the required safety equipment.

Wow, I just reread that post. Awefully negative...

I think you should get the RX8!

Rob R.