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aw614
aw614 Reader
1/3/20 11:53 a.m.
JG Pasterjak said:

I guess I should also point out for the zillionth time that Solo Street Class rules are inherently volatile and biased toward newer cars and prone to "flavors of the month" because you will never ever ever ever build any sort of parity by applying the same prep allowances to different cars. 

This is partly by design—keep freshness in the classes and keep them from stagnating. It's hard to market a program to sponsors where the competitive cars are old and irrelevant anywhere but this one venue. Plus, in a weird sort of way, flavor of the month creates parity by making the competitive cars easily available to every driver. I can walk in to any Mazda dealer in the country and buy an MX-5 that can win a national championship. That's better in a lot of ways than having to find one 25 year old car with an option package that they only made 30 of to be competitive.

Cough cough e90 m3 cough cough lol

 

On the Tesla side of things and OTA updates, I guess it is possible one car may get that OTA update and one car doesn't? Curious to see how other cars will be classed in the future and I want to see Porsche's stuff come out soon

NickD
NickD PowerDork
1/3/20 12:09 p.m.

Where do Teslas go once they get out of Street? Do they go anywhere out of Street? I kinda want to see a Street Mod or Prepared Tesla Model 3 now. Gut it, huge-by-wide Hoosiers with fender flares, maybe a wing and splitter. It'd be wild, I'm sure. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/3/20 12:16 p.m.
aw614 said:

On the Tesla side of things and OTA updates, I guess it is possible one car may get that OTA update and one car doesn't? Curious to see how other cars will be classed in the future and I want to see Porsche's stuff come out soon

The cars really want to update. It takes a while - maybe a week or so for it to roll out everywhere - but trying to prevent a Tesla from doing an OTA is going to require constant "no thanks" decisions on the part of the owner. If a M3P hasn't received the update that included the power bump, it was by dint of effort on behalf of the owner. 

Really, an OTA update is just an easier way to get the same updates that may have been applied by the dealer. For example, the 2001 Miata emissions update that required a dealer visit, or the aerodynamic fix applied to the original Audi TT to sort out the handling problems. 

Adrian_Thompson
Adrian_Thompson MegaDork
1/3/20 12:33 p.m.

Serious Q on the OTA updates.  Does it prevent the car running?  Does it need to be off line like a phone or a watch?  The reason I ask is I was talking to to someone over X mas dinner who is a marathon runner.  He has a (I think) Garman or Fit bit running watch.  Whatever it was, it was a top line smart watch just for runners.  He traveled to Japan for the (again I think) Tokyo Marathon and early morning local time the day of the marathon the watch received a forced over the air update.  Suddenly thousands of runners getting hyped up for the race find their fancy watch MIA.  He said there were hundreds of people calling back to the US, where it was still business hours the day before, yelling at customer service who apparently did abort the push.  I wonder if this could happen with cars too?  BTW, they now check major international race dates and avoid software pushes for 24 hours before.  

Anthony Dowd
Anthony Dowd New Reader
1/3/20 12:49 p.m.

In reply to Dave M :

You should run it, the i3.  I ran a 2015 and 2017 3500lb VW e-Golf locally in HS, switched cars mid season.  I won the championship within two different clubs.  Luckily, the Fiesta ST's and Civic Si's didn't show up enough to bump me down.  When they did show with 200tw tires and a decent or National Championship (Chris Carris) drivers I was bumped down. But, I persisted and stuck to it, only winning due to poor class participation.  I believe I am classed properly, 3500lbs, 135hp/215lbft, non adjustable camber and no easy upgrades besides a sway bar and maybe shocks and struts  I did end up top ten in PAX in both clubs.  I will never see an OTA update like a Tesla can.  Most EV's currently out, My VW e-Golf included are compliance cars.  Until recently, Tesla was the only performance EV besides maybe the i3 and i8.  To group us all together would be unjustified because one manufacturer can do an OTA performance upgrade.  

Harvey
Harvey SuperDork
1/3/20 1:11 p.m.

Seems about right, otherwise BS will be the Tesla Model 3 class.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/3/20 2:13 p.m.
Adrian_Thompson said:

Serious Q on the OTA updates.  Does it prevent the car running?  Does it need to be off line like a phone or a watch?  The reason I ask is I was talking to to someone over X mas dinner who is a marathon runner.  He has a (I think) Garman or Fit bit running watch.  Whatever it was, it was a top line smart watch just for runners.  He traveled to Japan for the (again I think) Tokyo Marathon and early morning local time the day of the marathon the watch received a forced over the air update.  Suddenly thousands of runners getting hyped up for the race find their fancy watch MIA.  He said there were hundreds of people calling back to the US, where it was still business hours the day before, yelling at customer service who apparently did abort the push.  I wonder if this could happen with cars too?  BTW, they now check major international race dates and avoid software pushes for 24 hours before.  

The car is unavailable for about 25 minutes. When an update is available, the car will let you know and then offer to set an update time - it defaults to the middle of the night. You can also choose to do it immediately. When the time comes, it counts down the last couple of minutes and gives you an abort option up to the point where the update starts. You also get notifications on your phone that say the same thing.

So while it would be theoretically possible to get yourself in a situation where you need the car and it's unavailable for 25 minutes, it would be pretty difficult to do so.

Dave M
Dave M HalfDork
1/3/20 3:06 p.m.
Anthony Dowd said:

In reply to Dave M :

You should run it, the i3.  I ran a 2015 and 2017 3500lb VW e-Golf locally in HS, switched cars mid season.  I won the championship within two different clubs.  Luckily, the Fiesta ST's and Civic Si's didn't show up enough to bump me down.  When they did show with 200tw tires and a decent or National Championship (Chris Carris) drivers I was bumped down. But, I persisted and stuck to it, only winning due to poor class participation.  I believe I am classed properly, 3500lbs, 135hp/215lbft, non adjustable camber and no easy upgrades besides a sway bar and maybe shocks and struts  I did end up top ten in PAX in both clubs.  I will never see an OTA update like a Tesla can.  Most EV's currently out, My VW e-Golf included are compliance cars.  Until recently, Tesla was the only performance EV besides maybe the i3 and i8.  To group us all together would be unjustified because one manufacturer can do an OTA performance upgrade.  

What's really stopping me is the wheel/tire situation. In that, the i3 has wacky OEM wheels with silly narrow tires (175/55 in the rear on 20s...oh yeah, they're staggered too!) so I can't just mount some RE71s and call it a day. Maybe I'll get out there with the OEM tires and see what it can do!

 

spacecadet
spacecadet GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/3/20 3:09 p.m.
NickD said:

Where do Teslas go once they get out of Street? Do they go anywhere out of Street? I kinda want to see a Street Mod or Prepared Tesla Model 3 now. Gut it, huge-by-wide Hoosiers with fender flares, maybe a wing and splitter. It'd be wild, I'm sure. 

SSP or ASP is where some of the not street class eligible supercars have gotten pushed in the past.


Tesla Model 3 is legal for ASP in 2020. came out a month or 2 ago.

mr2s2000elise
mr2s2000elise Dork
1/3/20 3:19 p.m.

Anybody see the Dale Earnhardt NUMBER 3 Tesla Model 3, that the guy got for free?

NickD
NickD PowerDork
1/3/20 3:26 p.m.
spacecadet said:
NickD said:

Where do Teslas go once they get out of Street? Do they go anywhere out of Street? I kinda want to see a Street Mod or Prepared Tesla Model 3 now. Gut it, huge-by-wide Hoosiers with fender flares, maybe a wing and splitter. It'd be wild, I'm sure. 

SSP or ASP is where some of the not street class eligible supercars have gotten pushed in the past.


Tesla Model 3 is legal for ASP in 2020. came out a month or 2 ago.

Ooooh, I want to see an ASP Model 3. Probably wouldn't be competitive but it'd be awesome. Imagine a Model 3 that turns as well as it accelerates.

spacecadet
spacecadet GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/3/20 3:43 p.m.

In reply to NickD :

Go look up John Laughlin's Optima OUSCI GTE car

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/3/20 3:48 p.m.
Keith Tanner said:
Adrian_Thompson said:

Serious Q on the OTA updates.  Does it prevent the car running?  Does it need to be off line like a phone or a watch?  The reason I ask is I was talking to to someone over X mas dinner who is a marathon runner.  He has a (I think) Garman or Fit bit running watch.  Whatever it was, it was a top line smart watch just for runners.  He traveled to Japan for the (again I think) Tokyo Marathon and early morning local time the day of the marathon the watch received a forced over the air update.  Suddenly thousands of runners getting hyped up for the race find their fancy watch MIA.  He said there were hundreds of people calling back to the US, where it was still business hours the day before, yelling at customer service who apparently did abort the push.  I wonder if this could happen with cars too?  BTW, they now check major international race dates and avoid software pushes for 24 hours before.  

The car is unavailable for about 25 minutes. When an update is available, the car will let you know and then offer to set an update time - it defaults to the middle of the night. You can also choose to do it immediately. When the time comes, it counts down the last couple of minutes and gives you an abort option up to the point where the update starts. You also get notifications on your phone that say the same thing. So while it would be theoretically possible to get yourself in a situation where you need the car and it's unavailable for 25 minutes, it would be pretty difficult to do so.

This is, of course, how Tesla does it currently. There's nothing to prevent someone like FCA* from doing something stupid like scheduling a forced OTA update in the middle of LA rush hour. This is simply to show that it can be done reasonably intelligently, but it would be possible to do it surprisingly badly.

I have questions about that runner watch update story, but it's a good framework for asking a pertinent question :)

 

 

 

*As the owner of a FCA vehicle and having dealt with their recall process, this example was not chosen randomly

GCrites80s
GCrites80s Reader
1/3/20 4:52 p.m.
Robbie said:

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I agree OTA updates are not just a problem for electric cars.

And re: electric Porsche - don't be surprised when it sucks (even at autox or track days) compared to the Tesla. Remember that innovators can often copy the old guard, but the old guard struggles to copy the innovator. Example: Apple's iPhone worked well enough as a Nokia but Nokia could never make something that worked well enough as an iPhone. And Kodak. And IBM. And Timex. Etc etc etc.

See also: Nissan leaf vs any Tesla ever.

Motorcycling is full of dead innovators/innovations and things the Big 4 did better only one year later than ATK, Cannondale, VOR, Vermati, Husaberg, Maico, Hodaka and a bunch of companies almost no one remembers. Tesla's main advantage is that it cares the most since it doesn't have F-150, Silverado and subprime (Nissan) on it's mind 24/7.

Kreb
Kreb GRM+ Memberand UberDork
1/3/20 8:40 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:

Just saw a post on Comment from David Marcus on Facebook..

"I didn't love autocrossing the Telsa, and mine got retired from autocross right after Nationals.  It accelerates like nothing I've ever felt, but corners like E36M3.  Its the polar opposite of a miata and I'd rather autocross a Miata"...

Interesting words coming from a National Champion.

That's the thing. Admittedly I've only flogged a performance version Tesla 3 once. The acceleration was a cool parlor trick for 15 minutes or so, but the thing never stopped feeling heavy. That's not fun. Even if you can teach a pig to dance, she probably still won't be much of a partner.  

bklecka
bklecka New Reader
1/3/20 10:10 p.m.

There is basically NO aftermarket support for the Tesla's. Nothing. If you have a popular ICE powered vehicle there are definitely lots of upgrades across the board. From bushings, brakes, suspension, clutches, exhaust, etc. the list goes on and on. You can't really think it is fair to place a economical mid-sized family sedan in the same category as proper sports cars. This is a play to keep the electrics out of racing by making them uncompetitive. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/3/20 10:38 p.m.

You can get several different coilover setups, springs, sways, brake upgrades, adjustable control arms and forged wheels. There is an aftermarket. 

Okay, no clutch and exhaust setups but I’m sure they’re coming soon ;)

GCrites80s
GCrites80s Reader
1/3/20 11:01 p.m.

I don't feel that aftermarket companies are specifically avoiding Tesla out of malice; rather they don't feel that the Tesla consumer is someone that changes suspension bushings, swaybars, springs etc. New cars not called Mustang, Miata, Camaro or 86 often have poor aftermarket support for years. Remember that a lot of Tesla people do not come from the land of car people but rather tech early adopters. Teslas are the only cars they actually care about and they literally don't know of the existence of these parts. I mean it's not like 3rd Gen F-Bodies and subframe connectors where there are 18 different companies making them and that's OK.

It's not like they can put anything but one swaybar and a set of single-adjustable shocks on in Street anyway.

bklecka
bklecka New Reader
1/3/20 11:56 p.m.

In reply to Keith Tanner :

I have looked in all the regular spots for aftermarket parts for the model 3, Amazon, Rock Auto and Summit and they have basically nothing but organizers and spare tire covers. I'm not doubting you found aftermarket parts but I don't know where they are hiding. 

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/4/20 12:29 a.m.

Amazon, Rock Auto and Summit? It’s not a drag Camaro! That’s the WalMart and Harbor Freight of the aftermarket. You won’t find quality Miata parts on any of those websites either. For good parts for specialty cars, you look to specialists. The people who develop and test parts, not generic resellers with no knowledge of their commodity products.

Try Unplugged Performance, Mountain Pass Performance and Bulletproof Automotive to start. 

ebonyandivory
ebonyandivory PowerDork
1/4/20 7:31 a.m.

I've never even autocrossed. And I've never driven a Tesla and probably won't but I'm somehow fascinated by this discussion.

It got me thinking though. An update to the software can increase the power delivered as was discussed but can the suspension be upgraded similarly?

I don't know enough about the suspension controls but theoretically, spring rates, roll stiffness, traction control... can't that also be "updated" remotely? 
 

(Keith, I think a free-flowing Borla cat-back and a high quality clutch would really wake up the Tesla)

 

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/4/20 8:17 a.m.

In reply to Dave M :

What is the i3's bolt pattern, he asked, noting the SCCA RallyCross rule that said that wheels meant for temporary tires are not legal for competition

Knurled.
Knurled. MegaDork
1/4/20 8:19 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

Amazon, Rock Auto and Summit? It’s not a drag Camaro! That’s the WalMart and Harbor Freight of the aftermarket.

Point of nitpick:  I'd suggest that Rock Auto is the Harbor Freight of the aftermarket, whereas Summit is paradoxically the Rock Auto of aftermarket performance.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
1/4/20 9:18 a.m.
ebonyandivory said:

I've never even autocrossed. And I've never driven a Tesla and probably won't but I'm somehow fascinated by this discussion.

It got me thinking though. An update to the software can increase the power delivered as was discussed but can the suspension be upgraded similarly?

I don't know enough about the suspension controls but theoretically, spring rates, roll stiffness, traction control... can't that also be "updated" remotely? 
 

(Keith, I think a free-flowing Borla cat-back and a high quality clutch would really wake up the Tesla)

In the case of the Tesla, the suspension is fairly conventional. So no downloadable spring rates. The torque vectoring system (aka stability and traction control) could very definitely evolve and improve. On other vehicles with magnetorheological shocks (Corvette/Camaro) or some sort of hydraulic springing mechanism (McLaren?), for example, improved suspension control is a real possibility. 

jr02518
jr02518 Reader
1/4/20 10:05 a.m.

The SCCA sandbox is really straight forward.  For the Street cars.  Buy you car, do not change/enhance your car ( yes you can change the front or rear sway bar, not both and you can not change the springs or their spring hats), you can change the struts/shocks and you can change the rims +/- 1" of diameter but the offset change is very limited.  

So, having scales at your local events will come into play when you think someone is running less than the factory delivered battery pack.

The software issue is going to be the "rabbit hole",  it should be easy to spot when these cars come into grid pulling a generator to plug into between runs.  At a nationals level event these will be the cars taking a "mechanical" between each run to juice up before they head back out.

Does it count if your car calls into the factory all by it's self for an upgrade?  Would that violate the "do not change/enhance your car" thing.  You might have to post the last date of your current download and it's rev level on the car, next to your number and class letters.  Just to cover disclosure.

I understand the not yet delivered to the public suspension system is going to be epic, but the weight of the car and the tires are still an issue.

They might not be an issue at a Pro Solo, the tires will have a very hard time not becoming molten.  You could just take two runs and park the car.  They do not make you take all your runs, yet.  Brave new world, 'ish?

David

  

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