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Tom Suddard
Tom Suddard GRM+ Memberand Associate Editor
10/3/16 2:34 p.m.

As a few teams noticed, we had some scoring difficulties at the Challenge. This thread should help eliminate some confusion.

First, a few disclaimers. Though autocross and drag standings are posted beforehand, and competitors talk a fair bit about the results, we do not tell the concours judges how the field is performing. They know to avoid seeking out results, too. This is done to prevent judging bias based on a car's dynamic score. Additionally, we have never (and will never) influence the concours scores in order to "make a better magazine story" or anything similar. To be blunt, we don't really care who wins. If one super fast super pretty car beats a different super fast super pretty car (which is what it takes to win the Challenge these days), then our readers win either way. We're at the event to spectate as much as anything else, and we let nature take its course.

Now, onto the results. We encountered a few separate issues. The results sheet was incorrectly weighted at the banquet, but we quickly corrected it and printed a fresh sheet within 15 minutes. This changed a few standings, but fortunately none of the trophy winners were affected. We were extremely lucky that the top results didn't change. Why did this happen? That concours weighting problem was a simple oversight in Excel due to our move from four to three judges this year. How will we prevent it in the future? Checks and balances, with a different process transferring the scores from real life to paper, and an auditing process shortly before the awards presentation.

Our second issue was discovered after talking to Stan Dorsey about his super cool truck, and its appallingly low concours score. I then went back through the individual concours judges' scoring sheets, and while the vast majority of the judges' handwriting was input correctly, a few cars (including Stan's truck) had incorrectly recorded scores. I went through the sheets again and personally entered every car's score, and it is now correct. Stan now has a new finishing position (18th overall). Team Alavanche also moved up to eighth place with their sweet 280Z.

The corrected results are posted here. Updated Challenge Results

We'd like to publicly acknowledge our mistake, correct the record, and move on. Sorry about that, everybody. We already have a new system for next year, and hope you'll trust us to be more accurate in the future.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/3/16 3:03 p.m.

Yeah, we made a mistake and are truly embarrassed. Stan asked me why he scored low in the concours. I explained that his under-hood detailing could have been better. At the time, I didn't realize that he had received nearly the minimum amount of points. So, yes, we messed up. Sorry, Stan and Team Alavanche.

patgizz
patgizz UltimaDork
10/3/16 3:07 p.m.
David S. Wallens wrote: Yeah, we made a mistake and are truly embarrassed. Stan asked me why he scored low in the concours. I explained that his under-hood detailing could have been better. At the time, I didn't realize that he had received nearly the minimum amount of points. So, yes, we messed up. Sorry, Stan and Team Alavanche.

When you told me that you scored me well i thought tim and rennie gave me ones across the board to come up with a 12

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/3/16 4:09 p.m.

When I was scoring your car, your wife asked me if the cute kids added to the score so I tossed an extra point or two your way. So, yeah, once I saw the scores this morning I was a little surprised, too. We goofed and, once we realized the goof, made the fix.

You guys humble us with your creativity and hard work. Likewise, the staff works themselves to the bone for this event. (Our event department rocks.)

Again, sorry for any agony.

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/3/16 4:13 p.m.

So PACC Racing built 50% of the top 8 overall finishers?

patgizz
patgizz UltimaDork
10/3/16 4:17 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: So PACC Racing built 50% of the top 8 overall finishers?

Initially, but like i was telling david and andrew around 2am Sunday morning, andrew laid a great foundation but the datsun is uniquely mine as is the mg to aussie steve.

Zomby Woof
Zomby Woof PowerDork
10/3/16 4:21 p.m.

Nothing new. 12 or 13 years ago my very clean, and well put together car scored way lower than some cars that were nothing more than street cars with stripped - and I mean stripped interiors.

EDIT: I just looked it up. I finished 40th in the concours. Ludicrous.

Karl La Follette
Karl La Follette UltraDork
10/3/16 4:22 p.m.

This is everyone behind me haha

31 13 Tearoffguys.com 1973 Triumph Stag 49.541 14.22 63.761 80.9303493 12.33333 93.263683

32 94 The Buddy Project 2004 Chevrolet Impala SS 45.16 16.149 61.309 84.167088 8.666667 92.833755

33 4 Sprocket's Speed Shop 1998 Honda Civic EX 44.572 16.542 61.114 84.4356449 8.333333 92.768978

34 2 Fraulein Rust 1974 BMW 2002 44.3 16.323 60.623 85.1195091 7.333333 92.452842

35 14 Meekin Crew 1995 Audi S6 45.904 15.656 61.56 83.8239116 7 90.823912

36 85 Johnny Quest 2005 Nissan Quest 45.324 20.561 65.885 78.3213174 12 90.321317

37 89 Plan B Racing 2002 Acura RSX 43.665 17.23 60.895 84.7393054 3.333333 88.072639

38 28 Cmc 0 Porsche 944 99.999 17.885 117.884 43.7735401 13.66667 57.440207

39 00 Procrastination Performance 1994 Ford f350 crew cab 48.368 99.999 148.367 34.7799713 21.33333 56.113305

40 16 Bilge Rat Racing 1974 Triumph spitfire 45.252 99.99 145.242 35.5282907 16.66667 52.194957

41 60 Plan B racing 1989 Ford Mustang 99.999 17.72 117.719 43.834895 6.333333 50.168228

AngryCorvair
AngryCorvair GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/3/16 4:48 p.m.
patgizz wrote:
AngryCorvair wrote: So PACC Racing built 50% of the top 8 overall finishers?
Initially, but like i was telling david and andrew around 2am Sunday morning, andrew laid a great foundation but the datsun is uniquely mine as is the mg to aussie steve.

Let me clarify: my post was intended to highlight the skills of the PACC, not to minimize the additional work you or the Aussie have put into your cars since they left the PACC compound.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/3/16 5:05 p.m.
AngryCorvair wrote: So PACC Racing built 50% of the top 8 overall finishers?

And 100% of the podium finishers in the drags.

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/3/16 5:08 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Tom (and the rest of the staff), you're a class act.

Stan's score hit a lot of us. I am so glad you took charge of it before I wrote the letter I was going to.

The Concours has always been hard for some people to understand, and I have spent a lot of years explaining and defending it (because it serves an important purpose for the magazine). I'm glad to hear this was an error.

Thank you.

petegossett
petegossett GRM+ Memberand UltimaDork
10/3/16 5:09 p.m.

In reply to Tom Suddard:

Is there any way to tell which teams were in the $1008 class? I know Stampie kicked ass & won, but I'm not sure if there were any other teams between him(in 16th place overall) & us(Bolus & Snopes) in 20th?

Karl La Follette
Karl La Follette UltraDork
10/3/16 5:09 p.m.
David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/3/16 5:25 p.m.

Someone just e-mailed me about the concours judging, and I'd like to share an edited version of my reply here:

We first look at innovation: 0-10 points. Something like the Can-Am car or Andrew Nelson's Bug would have received 10 points. The scope of these project is just off the scale. Something that’s bone-stock would get 0 or 1. Also, this is kind of graded on a curve as I'm going to assume that Andrew's car has more than 10 times the amount of creativity in it than something that's close to stock.

Where do the rest fall? Depends on the innovation. Something that's really innovative, unique or off the scale is going to outscore something that's stock, bought or has been done before.

Next is execution and it’s again scored on a 0-10 point scale. Something that is super-clean, super-effective and super-amazing would get 10. I’m pretty sure that Andrew’s Bug got close to 10 points here as it’s detailed and dialed-in. It also offers the performance that the build should deliver.

Everything else will fill in the rest of the scale. Something that’s dirty, incomplete or not dialed-in would get 0-1 points. A clean yet stock car would score more points than a stock yet dirty car.

Let's go back and look at the sucker Corvette from several years ago. It was super-innovative but, I have to admit, a little dirty. So while it would have scored high in innovation, it would have scored a little less in execution.

Then there’s presentation which is kind of a bonus for things like cool theme, neat story, etc. We give up to 5 points here. The parking lot build, for example, buried the needle here: They built it in the parking lot, had a cool theme, and turned a build into an event. That’s hard to top. The Team Gutty Honda Civic/Subaru WRC car scored top points here: The car was super-clean, the attention to detail was amazing, plus they had a theme, trading cards and, I believe, even posters. They delivered the entire package. A cool back story can also score extra points here. Did you overcome adversity to build what you did?

When we release the updated rules, we'll clarify this even further. We're definitely not trying to ding anyone. We're just looking to reward excellence. Hopefully this helps and, again, thanks for all of the work that you guys do.

tb
tb GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
10/3/16 5:30 p.m.

While it is a very classy move to admit your mistakes openly, now that you have owned up to it in this instance I will probably never believe you are not incorrect in the future.

tb
tb GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
10/3/16 5:34 p.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens:

Interesting info, thanks. I wonder if your examples are really strong in that if we have already seen something (ad nauseum) is it truly innovative the nth time around? Also, if something is unique but only because it is horrific and terrifying to be around at all is that such a good thing?

If I was ever trying get to score points in this event I still think I would prefer to not have any idea what you guys are looking for and just hope my vision of 'cool' happened to align well enough...

patgizz
patgizz UltimaDork
10/3/16 5:39 p.m.
SVreX wrote:
AngryCorvair wrote: So PACC Racing built 50% of the top 8 overall finishers?
And 100% of the podium finishers in the drags.

we owned the strip, no originally nelson built chassis finished lower than 4 and there were 4 of them. Had almost 9 tenths on the rest of the field.

1: andrew

2: calvin

3: aussie steve

4: me

SVreX
SVreX MegaDork
10/3/16 5:43 p.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens:

Thank you, David.

Apparently, I was writing at the same time about Concours judging, and sent my note to Tom. Please ask him to share.

Thanks for all you do!

Quasi Mofo
Quasi Mofo GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/3/16 5:50 p.m.

And please do not forget that our Misguided Missile was fifth in the Autocross portion with, after inspection by a random drunk Australian NOT NAMED STEVE, a set of severely loose and damaged control arm bushings (adding to some of the high speed instability)

Razorback Racing and Aussie will return.

On a side note why did no one mention the winner of the poolside crap beer contest?

It was literally the only competition that Razorback Racing was prepared for when we got there!

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
10/3/16 5:57 p.m.
tb wrote: In reply to David S. Wallens: If I was ever trying get to score points in this event I still think I would prefer to not have any idea what you guys are looking for and just hope my vision of 'cool' happened to align well enough...

That's probably the best way to approach it.

tb
tb GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
10/3/16 5:58 p.m.

In reply to Quasi Mofo:

John! Stop reminding everyone that you failed to perform even a cursory suspension inspection!

tb
tb GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
10/3/16 6:05 p.m.

In reply to David S. Wallens:

No one ever listens to me, but since you were definitely the best dressed guy at the banquet perhaps they will pay attention to someone with serious style!

Quasi Mofo
Quasi Mofo GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/3/16 6:08 p.m.

P.S. Yes we as a team we're quite chaffed after the event was done. Speaking for myself I apologize for anything taken out of context at 2:00am.

We felt we brought a very presentable vehicle that was the #1 "raw score" finisher.

Talking with the team for the following 20 hours simply brought home the fact that we competed with a car that had been to the Challenge three times. I blame myself for our poor performance in the drag race because I focused on correcting other issues on the trailer and overlooked what I thought was a sound system. It was not my personal vehicle nor did I spend time repairing in the off season but I was brought in to support Steve and Lon and manage that car through the weekend so they could focus on driving and other issues.

There were glaring flaws in the car that were found with the help of PACC Racing and other competitors. And I thank them all for exemplifying the GRM Challenge Spirit.

Simply put we prepared a third place finisher and the other teams scores are fair and correct.

I enjoyed my return to the Challenge in my support role but I expect my project will be completed and tested for the $2017 Challenge.

Thank you again for the opportunity to be a part of this family. I personally will place my toys back in the sand box happily let the other kids play since my fit

patgizz
patgizz UltimaDork
10/3/16 6:20 p.m.
Quasi Mofo wrote: P.S. Yes we as a team we're quite chaffed after the event was done. Speaking for myself I apologize for anything taken out of context at 2:00am. We felt we brought a very presentable vehicle that was the #1 "raw score" finisher. Talking with the team for the following 20 hours simply brought home the fact that we competed with a car that had been to the Challenge three times. I blame myself for our poor performance in the drag race because I focused on correcting other issues on the trailer and overlooked what I thought was a sound system. It was not my personal vehicle nor did I spend time repairing in the off season but I was brought in to support Steve and Lon and manage that car through the weekend so they could focus on driving and other issues. There were glaring flaws in the car that were found with the help of PACC Racing and other competitors. And I thank them all for exemplifying the GRM Challenge Spirit. Simply put we prepared a third place finisher and the other teams scores are fair and correct. I enjoyed my return to the Challenge in my support role but I expect my project will be completed and tested for the $2017 Challenge. Thank you again for the opportunity to be a part of this family. I personally will place my toys back in the sand box happily let the other kids play since my fit

Your 1:30am "tim thinks I'm an shiny happy person, steve is an shiny happy person 90% of the time, and you're guilty by association for being friends with us" theory was pretty convincing on 3 hours of sleep though

Quasi Mofo
Quasi Mofo GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
10/3/16 6:24 p.m.

In reply to patgizz:

I am a shiny happy person! I was just affirming it

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