1 2
Rocambolesque
Rocambolesque Reader
2/7/21 8:35 p.m.

My shop consists in one half of a 30'x20' unit in an industrial building. Currently, the lighting consists in two fluorescent light fixtures with 2x 4' tubes in each. This means my half has one fixture and the other guy's half has one fixture (although his has one burnt tube!). The shop is not very bright. I always need worklights to do everything. I find worklights to be a pain, they always run out of battery and fall off where I want them to hold, etc... I have a fixture with 2 halogen bulbs above my workbench. I does the job but emits a lot of heat. It's fine in the winter, but you notice it in the summer...

I'm thinking about upgrading the lighting. I have 2 things that I would like to do. First would be to change all 4 fluorescent tubes with T5 LED equivalents. I read everywhere that the LED tubes are better since they use much less energy to emit the same light. This is good if you own a large warehouse with 100's of tubes and you want to save on the electricity bill, but this is not my case. Do LED tubes emit more light than fluorescent tubes? Are they only an upgrade to save on power? Would it be worth it?

The other thing (the main one) is to buy a 6-pack of those LED shop lights on amazon and install them. However, I would like to install them on the walls, about 8' above the floor. See the circled areas on the pictures below:

You know those lights, it's the ones getting great reviews around here:

https://www.amazon.ca/Barrina-Integrated-Fixture-Basement-electric/dp/B01HBT3BVM/ref=sr_1_6?crid=1AVGE1QG7HKB3&dchild=1&keywords=barrina+led+shop+light&qid=1612750558&sprefix=barrina+%2Caps%2C191&sr=8-6

For those who have those, is the light emitted at a wide angle like a regular fluorescent tube or is it a narrow angle like LED's usually are? I don't really want to be drilling a bunch of holes in the concrete ceiling for the fixtures and the wires. That's why I'd like to use the wood pieces that were put up there by the previous tenant.

 

TJL (Forum Supporter)
TJL (Forum Supporter) HalfDork
2/7/21 8:45 p.m.

Its fairly flood-ish. I have the barina's and use one as a shop drop light. It is brighter a bit directly opposite the bulbs, but still bright as crap out of the sides. The tubes diffuse the light nicely. 

I went out to the garage and got a pic. You can see how much the light shows on the ceiling right next to the light on my bobo popcorn ceiling. 

Racebrick
Racebrick New Reader
2/8/21 12:50 a.m.


You may be better of with a string light of some type. At least then you will have lightning  over head.  as far as replacing a florescent  bulb with led, the main advantage is not having to deal with hazardous waste. They still use a ballast, which uses a lot of energy by itself. 

 

Many of the led shop lights can be daisy chained so install is easier. I have 12 lights on 3 outlets.

The Barina 4 foot and 8 foot multi packs are the best in my opinion. 

An amazing amount of light with very little consumption. If to can afford $300 I would suggest stringing the 8s and 4s together in arrays, since they can be ran together with jumpers between them. 

My garage ceiling is 27x30. I am adding some white steel roof panels on it to brighten up the whole area, I will then add three 8 footers length wise and four 4 footers at 90*, at the 8 foot junctions, over each bay. I will be using LED sticky strip lighting under the cabinets and shelves all will be controlled simple switches.

8 foot 10 pack $210

4 foot 10 pack $130

Combined I have used six 8 footers and eight 4 footers leaving some for the basement as well.

Now there IS a difference between the ones you posted and the ones I posted. The output is metrically higher, with that the illumination is better. I will say once you see the light you will enjoy it.

MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter)
MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) New Reader
2/8/21 5:06 a.m.

I worked for a while at an LED startup doing photometric testing, and I guess I still like writing about lighting because I just spewed out all this pretty quickly. Specific recommendations are in the last paragraph if you don't want to read it all. Hope some of this helps, and keep up the good work on that Mercedes! It's a very cool build, and exactly the sort of thing I want now that I almost had a factory 190E manual Sportline package (It had some weird title shennanigans going on, which thankfully the current owner managed to sort out).

Regarding the question about brightness: The unit you want to look for is "lumens" or "luminous flux". The lumen is a measurement that tries to compare how bright one light source is relative to another. It gets complicated because, as in the case of LEDs and fluorescents, they put out different amounts of power at different wavelengths, and human eyes have different sensitivities to different wavelengths of light. The lumen solves the problem by weighting the output power of a light source at each wavelength by the average human sensitivity to that wavelength (aka the luminosity function, created by a bunch of scientists asking people "is this light brighter? ...or this one?" like at the doctors office. So if you're shopping two lights, the one that outputs the higher number of lumens will be brighter (It should even have a little "lighting fact sheet" in the US, required by some government regulator).

Okay, so we know light A is brighter or dimmer than light B. Does that mean it's better? Well, that's more complicated. First, let's consider what is white light? If you've seen 'white' LED lights and thought, "wow those lights are blue", you'd be right -- they have a lot more blue than many other light sources we're familiar with, such as Sodium vapor (those very yellow street lamps), most classic tungsten light bulbs, or even the sun. What describes this is call "color temperature", and the 'best' value depends on where you're going to use the light. The temperature part comes from the fact that up until relatively recently, our only way of making artificial light was to heat something up until it glowed -- most famously, a tungsten filament. This is also how the sun works. Turns out that the output spectrum they emit is related to their temperature, so we just describe what white-ish color that looks like as "color temperature" (Lookup "black body radiation" for more on why here). You may have seen this as a menu in better cameras. Oh, and it's all in Kelvin, because reasons. The important thing is that lower is more yellow, higher is more blue. For detail oriented work, 4100K has been the historically chosen value, one that I find works well. Inside the home, you probably want something more towards 2700K, as that is a softer, warmer tone. 5000K is used in some color critical applications as it's similar to sunlight at high noon on a clear day, and higher than that it will look distinctly blue.

Think you're ready to go light shopping yet? Nope, hold on, it's not quite complex enough, let's add color rendering! This first became an issue with fluorescent, but has become much larger with LEDs. Usually, if you use the "get something so hot it glows" method of making light everything will look pretty good, if a little yellow -- this is because the glowing stuff is emitting a uniform spectrum of light. If you selectively sample two wavelengths near to each other, they'll have about the same energy. However, this wastes energy, because it also produces a lot of infrared energy (that we can't see) and a small amount of violet / UV (that we can't see / gets blocked by the glass of the bulb). So, people started making light sources that use a very efficient mechanism of making one light wavelength, and then apply a mixture of phosphors which convert some / all of that base wavelength into the visible spectrum that we see. This is how fluorescent work (but with a gas making the initial light), and how modern white LEDs work (using doped semiconductors). But, the output spectrum will have some peaks, and even though the light may have the same color temperature and luminous flux, the colors still look funky (which is why office furniture, particularly of a certain vintage has *that look*. You know the one that only looks good under cheap fluorescent lighting.). To make it possible for consumers to analyze this, the US government uses Color Rendering Index (CRI), and by extension, most of the rest of the world does last I knew. This is just a set of some color swatches, which are analyzed compared to an idealized tungsten (aka black body) source. And if that sounds tedious, don't worry it's actually done in a computer with math. The best possible CRI is 100, but a lot of lights only score around 80. It was actually introduced for fluorescent lights, and the color swatches don't look like any colors commonly known to man. With the advent of LEDs, it's pretty easy to get a good CRI score with a light that still looks pretty crappy -- the technologies have different shortcomings. To combat this, there are other color rendering units (for instance for TV lighting), and there are an additional set of swatches. Of these, the only one worth mentioning here is called "R9". R9 is just really red, like Ferraris should be, and it's particularly of interest in LED lighting because the red color is important for rendering a pleasant skin tone and red phosphors are the hardest to make, most expensive, and thus a part commonly cheaped out upon. See, the actual LED is bright blue, but to make white you have to goop a mixture of silicone and phosphors on top of it. The less of those expensive colored powders you can use, the cheaper the final product. Hence, cheap LED lights with 5000K color temperatures and 80 CRI. For a shop light, I'd just stick to things that actually make some type of metric on color rendering (or ensure that there's a regulated minimum in your locality, California requires 90 CRI and an R9 of > 50 for household interior lighting products).

Fixture wise, LEDs are completely different than previous lighting technologies because they emit most of their waste energy has heat that must be conducted away from the chip. Overheating shortens the lifespan by causing a positive feedback loop of yellowing / hazing in the silicone encapsulant. Additionally, in poorer designs, you can have a runaway thermal condition where as the LED gets hotter it's forward voltage drops, which allows more current to pass through it, causing it to get even hotter... LEDs also are inherently directional, unlike previous technologies. These two factors make all retrofit products likely to perform poorly. I've had LED bulbs burnout in less than 5mo. Any light fixture with a cover will only make the situation worse, as it's more light lost and more insulation. The LED drivers also need heat dissipation, and packaging those into a retrofit product also leads to compromises. The best designs are just sheet metal boxes with some plastic on the front: They dissipate the heat, spread the light have plenty of room for a quality off the shelf driver, and are cheap to make on existing assembly lines. B

You should be able to get more output from where the fluorescent fixtures are located for the same power, but it may not be a ton and I don't think it will solve the real issue. Fluorescents can be pretty efficient, but LEDs are over 100 lumens/watt consistently now, so if the tubes and ballast are older or lower end I'd say the LEDs are a shoe in for being an upgrade in output and quality (also: no fussing with cold start bulbs or ballast, or mercury hazards on breakage). But I think you'd actually benefit more from just having a few more fixtures of the same output evenly distribuited on the ceiling. I reckon this: that fixture is two 4' tubes, so probably around 4000 lumens if it's a 32W. If it were me, I'd see about replacing both fixtures with either 6 or 8 evenly distributed ceiling mounted four foot long 4000 lumen LED light fixtures. Batch deals on those at a glance appear to be under $200 US online, and having more light that's also coming from more places will cut down on shadows, instead of just making them starker. There are even diffuse panel light fixtures available if you want to take that line of thinking further. I'd try and loop the owner in if possible, because some decent LED fixtures will likely outlast your lease and are an upgrade that will be a bit of a hassle to move. For workbenches, I really like having a hutch, since you can put lights in the hutch that don't get in your eyes, and then also pile more crap on top. Those reels of LED strip lights are great for a budget job, or an "under cabinet light".

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
2/8/21 6:17 a.m.

I am not really impressed with the Barrinas, I got some for my basement for some task lighting but the color seems very yellow.

I use these in my garage: That is 10 Maxlite housings with 4k bulbs as per The Best Light Fixture Ever!
https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink/top...ink_source=app

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

I ordered three different sets of Barina lights. There was a distinct difference between the 4 foot 20w 44w and 72w all listed as 6500k bulbs. The 20w was nearly dingy where the 44w and 72w was crisp white. I think that the 20w may have had 4000k lamps in the 6500k box. They offered both. 

I will suggest the 6500k 72w all day long.

Ian F (Forum Supporter)
Ian F (Forum Supporter) MegaDork
2/8/21 7:08 a.m.

I have the Barrina lights installed in my garage, basement and attic and I've been happy with them.   In the garage and attic, I have them installed in continuous rows.  Nice even light with minimal shadows. My only real complaint about them is they do interfere with reception on some radio stations.  If I have my basement lights on, I'll get a lot of static through my main floor stereo when my classical music station is on.  However, when I had a different station on last night for the Superbowl, there was no interference, so it may be directional or frequency strength dependent. 

But for the quality of light for the ease of installation, the Barrinas are hard to beat for the price.  For the first time in over 25 years, I can finally see what I'm doing in my attic and basement.  I procrastinated on upgrading the lighting because neither space is conducive to previous lighting options. The Barrinas are easy.

asphalt_gundam
asphalt_gundam Reader
2/8/21 7:32 a.m.

Lights on the wall are an excellent way to go. Because the light isn't overhead it can reach under things and having lights on opposite walls reduces shadows to near none. I had a shop setup for a while that was approx 20x28 and lighting consisted of 5 dual bulb 8' lights with "Daylight" bulbs from Menards. I can't tell you how nice not needing a work light ever...even under a car was. They were mounted at 9' on the 12' high walls with one on the end opposite the garage door and two on each side of the 28' walls. Another great thing about wall mounting is that the open garage door never blocks any light.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
2/8/21 7:35 a.m.
QuasiMofo (John Brown) Forum Supporter said:

In reply to Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) :

I ordered three different sets of Barina lights. There was a distinct difference between the 4 foot 20w 44w and 72w all listed as 6500k bulbs. The 20w was nearly dingy where the 44w and 72w was crisp white. I think that the 20w may have had 4000k lamps in the 6500k box. They offered both. 

I will suggest the 6500k 72w all day long.

Good point I will double check on mine.

Indy "Nub" Guy
Indy "Nub" Guy PowerDork
2/8/21 7:46 a.m.

I have the Barrina 6500k lights in my garage and I'm EXTREMELY happy with them. 

Highly recommend and the price is reasonable.

DWNSHFT
DWNSHFT Dork
2/8/21 8:45 a.m.

In reply to MrRobogoat (Forum Supporter) :

Thanks for all your knowledge!

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/8/21 8:56 a.m.

About the wall mounting - I put a ring of Barrinas on my lift after seeing JG's similar setup. I was worried they'd be harsh on the eyes, always trying to shine in my face. Turns out the light is diffuse enough that this is not a problem, and the result is nice even light everywhere. I think Rocambolesque's idea will work pretty well.

I'd also recommend a coat of white paint on those walls. Doesn't have to be fancy paint, a coating of Killz primer would do the job.  That will help the whole space get brighter.

Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter)
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) SuperDork
2/8/21 9:52 a.m.

Keith, how did you attach them to the lift, magnets or drill/screws?

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/8/21 10:36 a.m.

Drill/screws. The lights have little clip-in brackets so they can be removed. Didn't think about magnets, that would be interesting to try.

It's been over a month since I did that and it still surprises me about how much light there is around the car. This is in a shop that was far from being dim before, I have big LED panels hanging from the ceiling.

Rocambolesque
Rocambolesque Reader
2/8/21 11:37 a.m.

Thanks for your input everyone! I will purchase the lights in a few weeks. 

I know that white paint on the walls would help a lot, but I'm probably only renting this shop for another year, after which we're planning on buying a house (with a detached garage that one day maybe will be cool like Keith Tanner's shop smiley). That's why I don't want to make alterations that would be too permanent. 

 

1988RedT2
1988RedT2 MegaDork
2/8/21 11:40 a.m.
Keith Tanner said:

I'd also recommend a coat of white paint on those walls. Doesn't have to be fancy paint, a coating of Killz primer would do the job.  That will help the whole space get brighter.

Yes!  A dingy room with OSB on the walls is going to absorb light.  White paint will brighten things up.

Keith Tanner
Keith Tanner GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
2/8/21 11:53 a.m.
Rocambolesque said:

Thanks for your input everyone! I will purchase the lights in a few weeks. 

I know that white paint on the walls would help a lot, but I'm probably only renting this shop for another year, after which we're planning on buying a house (with a detached garage that one day maybe will be cool like Keith Tanner's shop smiley). That's why I don't want to make alterations that would be too permanent. 

It's worth asking the landlord if they'd be okay with a coat of white primer. It would probably make the space more rentable to the next person. They might even pay for the paint if you do the work.

Took me a long time to work up to that shop. My first detached garage had a dirt floor! But you've gotta start somewhere, and anyplace you can call your own is a treat.

David S. Wallens
David S. Wallens Editorial Director
2/9/21 10:43 a.m.

FWIW, some more recent chatter on the subject of shop lighting right  here.

Rocambolesque
Rocambolesque Reader
2/14/21 7:21 p.m.

I ended up getting a six-pack of 8' 72W fixtures. Thanks for your input!

The pictures don't do it justice, but it's super bright in there now. When I turn all the new lights off, I wonder how I did all that work in the dark! I won't need a shop light to work on the engine since there are 2 light bars taking care of that now. I don't think I'll need a shop light to work inside the car either.

I'll finish the wiring later. For now I only connected the 3 pairs of lights with extension cords. There is already an unused junction box in the unit that I can probably add a switch to and use it for the lights.

Kreb (Forum Supporter)
Kreb (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/20/22 3:18 p.m.

I've got a bunch of 4 foot and 8-foot florescent fixtures at work. Seems like it's easier to pull out the ballasts and install single LED bulbs where we previously had double fluorescents than it would be to install whole new fixtures.  My main question is how much to trust these Chinese no-name brands  on Amazon versus Lithonia or other name-brands.

 

Curtis73 (Forum Supporter)
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
12/20/22 5:33 p.m.

In reply to Kreb (Forum Supporter) :

There is so much crossover these days that I'm not sure it matters.  I keep buying cheap LEDs from Amazon and it's a crap shoot.  When I redid my bathroom I got some Amazon LED R7S bulbs.  They lasted about 9 months before they started blinking.  So I went and bought some good ol' American-branded Feit bulbs from the hammer store.  Exact same bulb, right down to the heatsink, the T10 screws on the case, and the chinese characters printed on the circuit board.  One of the Feit bulbs was DOA.

Edit:  You might want to find a commercial electrical supply who does installs.  We had our theater retrofitted with LED tubes in the drop ceilings and LED panels to replace the vapor bay lights.  They offered us Philips for one price or a no-name knock-off at a much cheaper price, citing that they had installed thousands of the cheapies with very good results.  We took the cheapies and that was 6 years ago.  So far they're great.  I mention that because commercial installers who work 7 days a week with these products will likely know which cheapie bulb is a good bet and which ones aren't.

Tyler H
Tyler H GRM+ Memberand UberDork
12/21/22 9:09 a.m.

I bought a bunch of 4' fixtures from LED Wholesale when I did my garage renovation.  I think it was ~$600.  Drywall, insulation, paint and light made a huge difference.  They've been great!  Dimmable, too.  I used the Leviton light calculator online and went with the same guidelines for lumens at floor level that I found out Dollar General uses.

Before and after:

1 2

You'll need to log in to post.

Our Preferred Partners
fGcvzPsxSJJEEBVss7G7MbMEAJ5lGeD6BI4AwCEafWZlnrVkdtWKAtuqLzViGSQ3