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Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 5:56 a.m.

Car in question:  1989 Toyota 4Runner.  Manual trans (w56).

On friday, while driving into work, my shifts were feeling a bit "chunky".  So on the way home I picked up new trans oil and a new clutch master cyl.

The oil that was drained from the transmission had the color and consistency of swamp water (same in the transfer case).  New stuff is cheap Manol 75w-90 (GL4 -GL5) that I plan on replacing in about 1000kms.  The Master cyl turned out to be an incorrect fit for the truck so that couldnt be changed, but fluid was bled.  There is evidence of a drip coming from the master cyl (hence the reason I ordered a new one), and no evidence of a leak at the slave cyl.

I took it for a test drive today and here's what it does:

Shifting at a stop is no problem in any gear.  Truck seems to engage and disengage the clutch as it should.  Shifting up from first to second and second to third all seems to go fine (slow city driving), but I got a little grind shifting up into fourth.  Downshifting will grind (chunky feeling through shifter) in third, worse into second, and flat out refuses into first (unless I double clutch with a blip of the throttle in between).

So what sayest GRM.  Will the new clutch master cylinder I order on Monday fix the issue or will I be dropping the trans?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ PowerDork
12/13/20 6:50 a.m.

Clutch sticking a little?  Or maybe the friction disc is hanging up on the input shaft?  Or maybe it's some interaction between the new gear oil and synchros that were soaked on old gross oil and it will clear up as you drive it.

Can you shift without the clutch? 

Say you're in third, pop it in neutral, without clutching, rev it up, and gently press into second until it snicks in. If it's a transmission problem, it should act the same. 

Hopefully, just the MC not pushing enough fluid.

TurnerX19
TurnerX19 SuperDork
12/13/20 7:10 a.m.

Tired synchros. Double clutch with rev matching every shift from now on (up & down) and it will be perfect. Much cheaper than replacing them. 

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 8:27 a.m.

In reply to TurnerX19 :

See, that's what i was hoping it wouldnt be laugh

 

I was hoping the MC just didnt have the oomph to push the friction disc all the way away and things were spinning when they shouldnt.

 

Is it common for multiple synchros to fail at once?

bobzilla
bobzilla MegaDork
12/13/20 8:31 a.m.

First question what fluid spec is recommended by Toyota? It's amazing how many people think "oil is oil" and ignore the viscosity and spec (gl4,gl5 etc)

benzbaronDaryn
benzbaronDaryn SuperDork
12/13/20 8:42 a.m.

There is a shift bushing ball and cap on the trans shifter lever in the transmission.  There is an upgraded bushing from marlin crawler.  Easy repair, I had it happen on my 94 22re w56 truck, thought the trans gave up the ghost at first, only has 2,3,4 gears.  

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 8:42 a.m.

In reply to bobzilla :

Fsm says 75w-90 gl4 or gl5 in both the trans and t-case.  No idea what spec the grey water was that came out.

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 8:51 a.m.
benzbaronDaryn said:

There is a shift bushing ball and cap on the trans shifter lever in the transmission.  There is an upgraded bushing from marlin crawler.  Easy repair, I had it happen on my 94 22re w56 truck, thought the trans gave up the ghost at first, only has 2,3,4 gears.  

Crazy!  Ok, that'll be my next go to if this new MC doesnt fix it.  Can this be tackled with the trans installed?

Kramer
Kramer Dork
12/13/20 9:13 a.m.

Bad pilot bearing.  Clutch plate isn't slowing enough to allow a smooth shift.  Bad pilot bearing is keeping it spinning too quickly.  

Does it grind/clunk when shifting into reverse?   

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 9:18 a.m.

In reply to Kramer :

No, it's weird.  When i'm stopped i can shift into any gear smooth as butter.

benzbaronDaryn
benzbaronDaryn SuperDork
12/13/20 9:52 a.m.

I would check the shift bushing first, it is right on top of the trans, you pull the shift knob, rubber gaiter, then a cover plate.  I found mine totally disintegrated. Don't know if it is different on a 4x4.  Good luck with it. 

 

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 10:08 a.m.
benzbaronDaryn said:

I would check the shift bushing first, it is right on top of the trans, you pull the shift knob, rubber gaiter, then a cover plate.  I found mine totally disintegrated. Don't know if it is different on a 4x4.  Good luck with it. 

 

I'll give it a gander tomorrow evening if i can.  Too late for today.  If that is the case it's going to suck waiting for the shipping crying

Danny Shields (Forum Supporter)
Danny Shields (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand HalfDork
12/13/20 10:17 a.m.

Bill,

If the clutch works at a standstill, then I think that would rule out the clutch hydraulics and the pilot bearing. But since you said the master cylinder is dripping, I would change it anyhow.  Same goes for the shifter bushing.

If you had water in the transmission, that first oil change probably didn't get rid of all of it. I would go ahead and change the transmission oil again. RedLine and Swepco, among others, offer gear oils with additives that make the synchronizers work better.

My outlook on fixing cars is to fix all the issues that you know about first, and then see if that took care of everything.

84FSP
84FSP UltraDork
12/13/20 10:24 a.m.

Bobzilla may disagree but I hold that the OEM Gm synchromesh fluid solves many manual trans issues.  It is expensive but worth it's weight in gold.  I have swapped it into VW, Toyota, and a few others with stellar results.  The pilot bearing or bad synchros sound like other solutions as well.

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 10:37 a.m.
Danny Shields (Forum Supporter) said:

Bill,

If the clutch works at a standstill, then I think that would rule out the clutch hydraulics and the pilot bearing. But since you said the master cylinder is dripping, I would change it anyhow.  Same goes for the shifter bushing.

If you had water in the transmission, that first oil change probably didn't get rid of all of it. I would go ahead and change the transmission oil again. RedLine and Swepco, among others, offer gear oils with additives that make the synchronizers work better.

My outlook on fixing cars is to fix all the issues that you know about first, and then see if that took care of everything.

Redline is on order (cant source it locally), it'll be a few weeks before it gets in though crying

 

Unsure if it was water intrusion though.  Here's what it looked like:

 

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/13/20 10:47 a.m.

Try the top busing rebuild kit. Though I've changed some and it won't really cure it. 
 

Look at the Clutch pedal bracket. They crack and limit clutch throw. 
https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116/clutch-pedal-bracket-broken-again-common-thing-134894/

 

freaking Toyota's. 

No Time
No Time SuperDork
12/13/20 10:48 a.m.
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) said:

In reply to Kramer :

No, it's weird.  When i'm stopped i can shift into any gear smooth as butter.

Is that the case if you put it in neutral, let the clutch out, then push the clutch and shift into gear?

Having the issue in multiple gears seems to make a bad synchro a low probability. 

Multiple gears makes me think clutch related, shifter wear, or bearing issues. I would start where you are with the clutch, inspect the shifter, and only after ruling those out would I start thinking transmission. 

I'm not sure on the trans you have, but typically the speed differential between the input and output halves of the main shaft decreases and you go up in gears, so drag on the main shaft bearing could have the shifting improve as you get closer to that 1:1 ratio that locks the input and output shaft together. 

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 10:58 a.m.

In reply to No Time :

Right.  I can put it in neutral, release clutch, and then shift into gear with the clutch no prob while stopped.  I can also reverse quickly, stop and shift into first, with no issues at all either.

I believe (but have not confirmed) that the trans in my truck is a W56.

In reply to Caffeine : 

Is this the badboy?  https://www.marlincrawler.com/shifter-parts/new-heavy-duty-seat-socket-combo

Even if it doesn't fix the issue, having a tighter shifter is always a good thing (Love the RX8 for that reason.  TThat shifter's tighter than a bolt action rifle)

Fueled by Caffeine
Fueled by Caffeine MegaDork
12/13/20 11:52 a.m.

In reply to Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) :

That's it. Check the pedal bracket. Mine broke In My Toyota 

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
12/13/20 11:55 a.m.

In reply to Fueled by Caffeine :

I didnt notice anything when i was in there.  I'll do a visual ndi on the bracket next time i'm in there (Just ordered the goodies from MarlinCrawler).

Thanks everyone!

L5wolvesf
L5wolvesf HalfDork
12/13/20 12:02 p.m.
Fueled by Caffeine said:

In reply to Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) :

That's it. Check the pedal bracket. Mine broke In My Toyota 

I recall this issue from the Toyota truck forum I'm on

https://www.yotatech.com/forums/f116/how-clutch-bracket-removal-repair-assembly-w-pictures-282452/ 

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/4/21 2:58 a.m.

Sorry for the wait, we got quarentined (twice) and then ran into the holidays (everything closed).  Here's an update:

 

Master cyl replaced and bled (all I had for fluid was Motul RBF600)  and the shifting is much improved.  I can upshift through all gears but get just the slightest of grinds when going into fourth.

 

I can downshift all gears but second.  Double clutch required for that one and i cant feel the synchro spinning up at all.

 

The clutch engages way low, so i think another bleed is required and that should take care of my 4th gear isssue, but i'm thinking the 2nd gear synchro may have completely given up the ghost.

 

Marlin crawler parts have not yet arrived, which is kind of a bummer because those bushings are included in their W56 rebuild kit.

 

All in all, good times.

daeman
daeman Dork
1/4/21 3:44 a.m.

I have previously seen the stamped toyota clutch forks crack/split where the pivot ball sits. Slip the boot and see if you can get a visual or can get a finger to it to make sure it's still good.

Cracking would explain the sudden onset. It'd also make your engagement point feel really low because alot of your travel is soaked up by the flexing of the damaged area

Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter)
Hungary Bill (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
1/4/21 11:47 a.m.

Re-bled complete.  did not fix fourth gear upshifts

 

Daeman:  I watched it operate today, while Mrs. Hungary pumped the pedal but I didnt see any cracks.  What has me scratching my head though is it really doesnt look like the slave moves much...  Only subjective info for the moment as I never saw it operate when it was working good, but the fork only moves about an inch.  The clutch still seems to engage pretty low to the floor too, but that's semi-speculative as I havent driven it in about 6-months.

Anyhoo, drove it to work today, here's the report:  Only 3rd gear was improved by the master cyl change, so we'd still be dealing with multiple synchros (if we were suspecting that still).  Second feels like it's synchro-less (double clutch fixes that one to a point).  Fourth grinds on the upshift enough to be concerning, but doesnt feel harsh enough that it scares me.  First, third, and fifth operate as advertised.

So back to the To Do list:  clutch bracket visual NDI, slave to fork inspection, and I do have a slave cylinder I can swap in there (but it's not leaking, so kind of hard to call it a suspect).  Marlin Crawler bushings when they arrive...  Failing that, new clutch with new pilot bearing.

It's worth noting that the truck has been sitting since....  April(?)  of last year while it was getting painted, etc.  I dont think they ever started it or moved it...

Good times.

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