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frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 12:48 p.m.

In reply to STM317 :

OK I'll have to go back and reread that.  Does your state offer a Supplemental rebate?   

z31maniac
z31maniac MegaDork
9/9/22 8:56 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to STM317 :

OK I'll have to go back and reread that.  Does your state offer a Supplemental rebate?   

I don't think the rebate is the point, it's putting a child in debt that everyone is concerned with. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 9:02 p.m.
Snowdoggie (Forum Supporter) said:

When I was in my teens you could get a running old British sports car for $500 and spend endless time on the side of the road, pushing it home and working on it. You could pile up $500 and gas money by washing dishes after school.

Not the best idea, but it worked for me back then. Now it's $300 a month for a used car and a cosigner instead of $300 cars. Times have really changed and not for the better.

I have learned that numbers of my youth are simply no longer possible all these years later. 
  My first house in 1975 ( on this lake ). I paid $27,800.     Today the house on that site would likely sell for well over 2 Million dollars.  Possibly even 2 million 700,000. 
      However cars are actually getting cheaper. ( adjusted for inflation). My first car in 1962 cost  $500.  Today it would probably sell for only $5000.  I'm sure with some diligent searching I could even find a $5000 Miata. 
     

I bought my daughters CRV for 4500 dollars.

My first clue was "brand new Michelin tires". Who puts a set of very expensive Michelin tires on a 13 year old Honda ?

The answer is, an airline pilot. My guy used the CRV as his "airport car" to drive from Nacadoches Texas to Dallas Texas on the days he was flying. No pilot would own a commuter car that he had any question whatsoever about reliability. No pilot misses his flight due to a breaking down commuter car. The guy was retiring and no longer needed his airport car. The only deficiency of the car was that the paint was scorched from sitting many days in a sun drenched Love Field airport parking lot in Dallas. 

And that CRV has served my daughter heroically as her first car and she's now set to graduate college in May. All that time in the little CRV with the scorched clear coat. 4500 dollars. She long ago wore off those brand new Michelins which I replaced with the same. I did some AC work to it. Someone stole the catalytic converter in the dorm parking lot. I put a 150 dollar Amazon cheapie back on it and she's still going. 

No debt. We got more important E36 M3 to worry about than making a car payment and debt.  Every single time in the history of mankind it is cheaper to buy and repair a used Honda or Toyota than the new one. I'll die on that hill. Long term, it's cheaper.  You may keel over dead as a hammer tomorrow. No good leaving her with lingering debt in your absence. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 9:26 p.m.
Tom Suddard said:

I haven't read the entire thread, but what specific help are you offering?

Is it money?

Is it your name as a co-sign on the loan?

Is it something else?

Just trying to figure out what we are arguing about. Most teenagers, especially most planning to pay for med school, probably need money above all else. $300/month won't pay for books, nevermind tuition, food, housing and a car loan. 

To summarize. My 16 year old granddaughter is already attending college with a goal of becoming a doctor. College is too far away to walk. And there are no direct bus lines. Making commuting by bus likely over an Hour and a half one way.  Scooters and bicycles in Minnesota's Snow, Ice, and sub zero temps. Is not viable.  

    A car is the only reasonable answer.   Most here suggest a cheap used car  but no offer of coming here to repair it when needed.  Or any way to deal with the stress of starting that cheap used car in 40 below weather.  No assurance that the tires will work in snow depths that often exceed a foot or two. Her father has to have others do any work on his car.  
     My granddaughter  has been cleaning our  house every 2 weeks for the past 2 years +  she earns $300 a month 

    We propose to use that $300 to get her a new Chevy Bolt. About 6 years would pay off the loan.  
    One other possibility would be to use almost the same amount of money to buy a used Volt to give her the option to increase her range if she is willing to buy gas. 
      The third remote possibility is my wife "selling" her Honda CRV with only 130,000 miles  and a near new set of extra Blizzacks mounted on rims for winter use.  "Sell"*it at what a dealer would give her on my wife's New EV. 
* actually trade house cleaning for car payment. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 9:39 p.m.
z31maniac said:
frenchyd said:

In reply to STM317 :

OK I'll have to go back and reread that.  Does your state offer a Supplemental rebate?   

I don't think the rebate is the point, it's putting a child in debt that everyone is concerned with. 

Right now my granddaughter is stressing about how she will get to college in the future.  She knows she can continue to use my truck. But that's only temporary. 
   They've tried to buy 2 affordable cars both needing work right now  plus however much delayed maintinence is facing her.  Both were lost  in the time it took to involve  her father and mother  looking it over.  $ 1000 is a big stretch right now and a loan isn't possible.  
 anything that cheap is hoping to need fixing. Regularly.  How much stress is that putting on her?  Will it start in Minnesota winters where temps drop to 40 below ?   We're in the rust belt.  Not only body work but brake lines rust, exhaust falls off,  etc.  

   You want to add those stresses to a girl who barely knows how to drive?  What's that squeak, that noise?  When is something else going to fail that I can't afford to have someone fix?  
     My granddaughter gets $300 a month from us for cleaning the house.  Has for over 2 years. That's about what the payments would be to us.   For a new car without those problems. 
  Just simple cheap transportation. 
     
    

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/9/22 10:06 p.m.
STM317 said:
frenchyd said:

In reply to yupididit :

It's your choice either way at least according to what I read.  You might want to confirm that it was released early this week.  

It's my understanding that you won't be able to get the credit at the point of sale until Jan 1 2024. If you make the purchase in 2023, you'd be paying and financing the price without the credit, and then getting whatever portion of the credit applies when you file your 2023 income taxes in early 2024

I did find that on line and you are right We can take the $7500 tax credit in 2023  or the deduction in 2024.  Since it's a tax credit and not an income credit  we'll take it this year.  
Still slightly better to wait the extra year because sales taxes are based on selling price. ie price less trade in.  In effect we'd be  be paying sales tax on an extra $7500. 

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
9/10/22 8:47 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Well, you'd also be financing the extra $7500 which likely ends up being more than the extra sales tax over the life of the loan (even if you get the full $7500 credit back when you file your taxes).

Also, I think you're overestimating the amount of issues that may arise with a used vehicle, and how much stress a 16 year old might feel about them. She's not very likely to even notice squeaks or rattles, let alone stress about them.

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones SuperDork
9/10/22 9:32 a.m.

In reply to STM317 :

You're wasting your time. All used cars are junk and don't last. The only cars that last are the one owner cars. A 6 year old car will break down on day 3, but whatever car he tells her to buy, will be perfect after 6 years, and last another 13 with no issues. 

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/10/22 9:34 a.m.

In reply to STM317 :

Fear of the unknown is worse than the actual event.   Things you and I could easily solve, a dead battery for example  becomes overwhelming to someone with no knowledge or interest in a car other than will it get her to class on time.  
  I can see an expensive tow job and a shop taking advantage of her ignorance.  We'll do a diagnostic test to see what's wrong. 
    Sure she could sign up to AAA and add that to her costs?    Then there is the stress over Gasoline.  To guys like us who have seen prices move and change,   we take it with a grain of salt.  But coming up with the money to fill the gas tank is a cost and stress I think she can be saved from. 
     Finally  a water pump, alternator,  starter, etc. which is normal with a low cost used car, will be a budget busting really big deal when she  should be focusing on grades to be accepted into Med school. 
   I drove an old beater Jaguar  to and from college.  After my Navy service.  One night a rear leaf spring broke and dropped to the pavement sending up a shower of sparks.  Since the tire wasn't rubbing against any of the bodywork I just kept going and got safely home.  
The next morning, Using a scrap of angle iron and some vise grips  I clamped everything together  and kept driving it until I sourced an unbroken spring and replaced it. 
  No stress, no real cost, and the few hundred dollars I paid for the car in the first place was money well spent. 
 Likely that's exactly how you'd have dealt with it too! 
     With no knowledge,  or time to learn ( it's a matter of priorities )  I believe it's best to keep her transportation as simple as possible.  

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/10/22 9:50 a.m.

Why is this thread still going on?

The problem was solved before it was even started. 

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
9/10/22 10:08 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

I just think you're blowing it out of proportion. You're essentially proposing to trade potential stress about potential repairs for guaranteed stress about spending over 100% of her income that's required in order to have any transportation.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/10/22 10:25 a.m.

 $300 a month is what she earns from us.  Her other job pays more than that but requires more time. 
 

I'll grant you that cheaper up front would seem better.   Just look at it from my perspective. 


   I'm well past retirement age and still working.  In fact now I'm working a full time job and away from home for 11&1/2 hours.  
   Much as I'd like to be her go-to- guy on car issues, I simply don't have time.  Instead I want to take transportation stress away from her.  

New cars are a lot more predictable expense wise than used cars are. That's just fact.  

    $300 a month  ( which she's earning from us) against maybe $200 a month for a used car, plus gas required maintenance ( oil changes etc)  and the AAA membership.  
      What does a $200 budget buy?  $50  in gas  $20 for maintenance budget, AAA membership of $10  leaves $120 for payment.  That's somewhere around  $2600-2700 depending on interest rates. 
      Properly selected and with better than average luck,   she might find something that will last the payments without getting too expensive. 
 Add $100 and she won't have to worry about any of that.  
      With my wife's income we are really doing OK.  If she choose not to keep it, we could easily either keep it or sell it.   Without any negative impact.   
         However if like my daughter she kept it  she would have as much as 14 years without a car payment.  

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/10/22 10:56 a.m.
STM317 said:

In reply to frenchyd :

Well, you'd also be financing the extra $7500 which likely ends up being more than the extra sales tax over the life of the loan (even if you get the full $7500 credit back when you file your taxes).

Also, I think you're overestimating the amount of issues that may arise with a used vehicle, and how much stress a 16 year old might feel about them. She's not very likely to even notice squeaks or rattles, let alone stress about them.

You are right. We should wait the extra year for the best deal.  Except there's the transportation issue.  We can easily wait but she can't.  
  Neither of us know exactly what will happen with a used car.  You could be right, I could be right. 
 I've bought 22 new cars in my life and probably at least as many used.   IMHO new cars are a better deal than used cars. 
     Your experiance may be different. 
   Out of my own pocket I've only bought 3-4 new cars. The rest were paid for by my employers.  One was paid for more than 3 times. 
   Those budget conscious employers didn't  want me in cheap used cars, rather something that would reliably present a respectable business front.  
        They didn't want me showing up to a customer with grease under my fingernails or dirt on my clothes.   
      

Duke
Duke MegaDork
9/10/22 11:50 a.m.
Slippery said:

Why is this thread still going on?

Because frenchy gonna frenchy.

 

Steve_Jones
Steve_Jones SuperDork
9/10/22 12:24 p.m.
frenchyd said:

 


   I'm well past retirement age and still working.  In fact now I'm working a full time job and away from home for 11&1/2 hours.  
   

That statement is exactly why she should not take any financial advice from you. 

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/10/22 1:33 p.m.
frenchyd said:

In reply to STM317 :

Fear of the unknown is worse than the actual event.   Things you and I could easily solve, a dead battery for example  becomes overwhelming to someone with no knowledge or interest in a car other than will it get her to class on time.  
  I can see an expensive tow job and a shop taking advantage of her ignorance.  We'll do a diagnostic test to see what's wrong. 
    Sure she could sign up to AAA and add that to her costs?    Then there is the stress over Gasoline.  To guys like us who have seen prices move and change,   we take it with a grain of salt.  But coming up with the money to fill the gas tank is a cost and stress I think she can be saved from. 
     Finally  a water pump, alternator,  starter, etc. which is normal with a low cost used car, will be a budget busting really big deal when she  should be focusing on grades to be accepted into Med school. 
   I drove an old beater Jaguar  to and from college.  After my Navy service.  One night a rear leaf spring broke and dropped to the pavement sending up a shower of sparks.  Since the tire wasn't rubbing against any of the bodywork I just kept going and got safely home.  
The next morning, Using a scrap of angle iron and some vise grips  I clamped everything together  and kept driving it until I sourced an unbroken spring and replaced it. 
  No stress, no real cost, and the few hundred dollars I paid for the car in the first place was money well spent. 
 Likely that's exactly how you'd have dealt with it too! 
     With no knowledge,  or time to learn ( it's a matter of priorities )  I believe it's best to keep her transportation as simple as possible.  

Frenchy, you don't seem to recognize how insulting this is. 
 

On behalf of my daughters, my wife, and every woman I've ever met PLUS all the young people I know, please STOP arguing how incapable they are. It's absolutely insulting. 
 

My wife used to stress about appliance repair. Then she discovered how easy is is to watch YouTube videos. Now she fixes every appliance whenever they break, and saves TONS of money.

Your granddaughter can figure it out. She's not gonna stress anywhere near as much as you think she is.  She is capable, and does NOT need you to be her go-to guy.
 

Committing her to a big loan is a terrible idea. 

STM317
STM317 PowerDork
9/10/22 1:48 p.m.
frenchyd said:

 $300 a month  ( which she's earning from us) against maybe $200 a month for a used car, plus gas required maintenance ( oil changes etc)  and the AAA membership.  
      What does a $200 budget buy?  $50  in gas  $20 for maintenance budget, AAA membership of $10  leaves $120 for payment.  That's somewhere around  $2600-2700 depending on interest rates. 
      Properly selected and with better than average luck,   she might find something that will last the payments without getting too expensive. 
 Add $100 and she won't have to worry about any of that.  

It's not just adding $100/mo though. You're comparing total cost of ownership of the ICE used vehicle with just the hypothetical monthly payment for the EV. It's going to cost her more than $300/mo to actually own and operate the EV. I think a few people have run the numbers already and a $300/mo payment seems optimistic in the first place. Especially if you're not able to discount the price with the tax credit at the point of sale.

On top of that, she'll need full coverage insurance. This estimator is specific for MN and puts the cost at $5k/yr minimum and $7k average for an inexperienced female driver with zero credit history. That's $400-550/mo just for insurance.

And annual registration costs will be higher because it will be both brand new and an EV. MN charges $10+ 1.25% of the value of the vehicle to register. PLUS a flat $75/yr for an EV. So if the car is worth $20k in year 1, it will cost her $335 just to register it and that's not going to drop very much each year. For comparison, a $10k Corolla would cost $135 to register which is $200/yr that can go towards maintenance.

Which leads me to my next point. Even if an EV doesn't require oil changes, they do still need maintenance. An ICE car probably does 1-2 oil changes per year @ $45 per. The $75 Extra EV registration fee will offset most or all of that, and may even be more if she only needs 1 oil change per year. The Bolt is also heavier than a comparable ICE. That extra weight coupled with the high torque and regen braking will consume tires faster than a comparable small ICE hatchback. The EV still needs washer fluid, brake maintenance, suspension refreshes, wiper blades, etc. And that's assuming nothing like a windshield gets damaged and needs out of pocket replacement or a headlight goes out.

So $300/mo payment + $400/mo insurance + $28/mo registration + $10/mo maintenance + $10/mo charging (One trip to a public fast charger could blow this line of the budget) = $748/mo as a rough estimate for the monthly cost to own AND operate a $20k EV.

Also, will she be able to park on campus? It seems like parking passes may not be guaranteed to all students. And if they are granted, it's going to cost anywhere from $77-143 per month just for a parking pass!

I think we can all see that your intentions are well meaning. But there's not enough cushion in this girl's finances to reasonably own a $20k vehicle, EV or not. And if it were my family member I'd be concerned about adding stress and distraction to an already stressful and busy life.

SV reX
SV reX MegaDork
9/10/22 1:50 p.m.

I asked my son what he thought of this thread. He's a couple years older than her, but close. (Not a car guy, so breakdowns can stress him)
 

I asked him the title of this thread. Should you help your granddaughter?

His response was that he thinks the first thing you should do is to talk with her. "Treat her with respect and ask her opinion". 

yupididit
yupididit GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/10/22 2:55 p.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Frenchy, she wants to be a medical Dr? The human body is infinitely more complex than a car. Teach her how to use a multimeter and diagnose a battery. Being a MD will require blind diagnostic and research just like a car except a life is on the line. So the stakes are higher. 

A few contradictions I noticed. First: You describe used cars as unreliable ticking time bombs but often brag about how you driven your new cars for 15 years and 300k miles with hardly any maintenance. Your cars became used cars the minute it left the lot. Second: You talk about how smart and capable of a girl she is. Then turn around and describe her as incapable of operating a used car. Even though she does with your high mileage truck already. Every teenager woman and person that is driving on this road is driving a used car. 

So are used cars bad or good? Or are they only reliable transportation for mechanically inclined men? Is your grand daughter incapable or not?

I'm saying all this while not considering the financial concerns of this because as stated above, new cars cost money and will require work. Plus warranties do not last forever.

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/10/22 3:01 p.m.
Steve_Jones said:
frenchyd said:

 


   I'm well past retirement age and still working.  In fact now I'm working a full time job and away from home for 11&1/2 hours.  
   

That statement is exactly why she should not take any financial advice from you. 

Don't take my advice.   Fair enough.   I'm currently in the upper 10%  based on income and assets. 
     Really if you don't like working, don't work.   I happen to think it keeps me happy and healthy.   But you may prefer golf or drinking with your buddies. Whatever,  I like the feeling of being needed and helpful to kids.  I regularly get letters and sincere thank you'd from parents on how I deal with their children on the bus.  
     Most SPED drivers require a Para to keep children in line.  I haven't.   

frenchyd
frenchyd MegaDork
9/10/22 3:14 p.m.
SV reX said:
frenchyd said:

In reply to STM317 :

Fear of the unknown is worse than the actual event.   Things you and I could easily solve, a dead battery for example  becomes overwhelming to someone with no knowledge or interest in a car other than will it get her to class on time.  
  I can see an expensive tow job and a shop taking advantage of her ignorance.  We'll do a diagnostic test to see what's wrong. 
    Sure she could sign up to AAA and add that to her costs?    Then there is the stress over Gasoline.  To guys like us who have seen prices move and change,   we take it with a grain of salt.  But coming up with the money to fill the gas tank is a cost and stress I think she can be saved from. 
     Finally  a water pump, alternator,  starter, etc. which is normal with a low cost used car, will be a budget busting really big deal when she  should be focusing on grades to be accepted into Med school. 
   I drove an old beater Jaguar  to and from college.  After my Navy service.  One night a rear leaf spring broke and dropped to the pavement sending up a shower of sparks.  Since the tire wasn't rubbing against any of the bodywork I just kept going and got safely home.  
The next morning, Using a scrap of angle iron and some vise grips  I clamped everything together  and kept driving it until I sourced an unbroken spring and replaced it. 
  No stress, no real cost, and the few hundred dollars I paid for the car in the first place was money well spent. 
 Likely that's exactly how you'd have dealt with it too! 
     With no knowledge,  or time to learn ( it's a matter of priorities )  I believe it's best to keep her transportation as simple as possible.  

Frenchy, you don't seem to recognize how insulting this is. 
 

On behalf of my daughters, my wife, and every woman I've ever met PLUS all the young people I know, please STOP arguing how incapable they are. It's absolutely insulting. 
 

My wife used to stress about appliance repair. Then she discovered how easy is is to watch YouTube videos. Now she fixes every appliance whenever they break, and saves TONS of money.

Your granddaughter can figure it out. She's not gonna stress anywhere near as much as you think she is.  She is capable, and does NOT need you to be her go-to guy.
 

Committing her to a big loan is a terrible idea.  
 

please reread.  She is going to be a Doctor.  Perhaps you aren't aware  of how hard it is to get accepted by Med schools.  You need not only great grades in all the right subjects  but  a resume of participation beyond school work.  
     Distractions such as getting to and from will hurt her chances.  

 

 

 

OHSCrifle
OHSCrifle GRM+ Memberand UltraDork
9/10/22 3:16 p.m.

Hey Frenchy

GIVE HER the berkeleying CRV and get your wife a new car. 

Slippery
Slippery GRM+ Memberand PowerDork
9/10/22 3:34 p.m.
frenchyd said:
SV reX said:
frenchyd said:

In reply to STM317 :

Fear of the unknown is worse than the actual event.   Things you and I could easily solve, a dead battery for example  becomes overwhelming to someone with no knowledge or interest in a car other than will it get her to class on time.  
  I can see an expensive tow job and a shop taking advantage of her ignorance.  We'll do a diagnostic test to see what's wrong. 
    Sure she could sign up to AAA and add that to her costs?    Then there is the stress over Gasoline.  To guys like us who have seen prices move and change,   we take it with a grain of salt.  But coming up with the money to fill the gas tank is a cost and stress I think she can be saved from. 
     Finally  a water pump, alternator,  starter, etc. which is normal with a low cost used car, will be a budget busting really big deal when she  should be focusing on grades to be accepted into Med school. 
   I drove an old beater Jaguar  to and from college.  After my Navy service.  One night a rear leaf spring broke and dropped to the pavement sending up a shower of sparks.  Since the tire wasn't rubbing against any of the bodywork I just kept going and got safely home.  
The next morning, Using a scrap of angle iron and some vise grips  I clamped everything together  and kept driving it until I sourced an unbroken spring and replaced it. 
  No stress, no real cost, and the few hundred dollars I paid for the car in the first place was money well spent. 
 Likely that's exactly how you'd have dealt with it too! 
     With no knowledge,  or time to learn ( it's a matter of priorities )  I believe it's best to keep her transportation as simple as possible.  

Frenchy, you don't seem to recognize how insulting this is. 
 

On behalf of my daughters, my wife, and every woman I've ever met PLUS all the young people I know, please STOP arguing how incapable they are. It's absolutely insulting. 
 

My wife used to stress about appliance repair. Then she discovered how easy is is to watch YouTube videos. Now she fixes every appliance whenever they break, and saves TONS of money.

Your granddaughter can figure it out. She's not gonna stress anywhere near as much as you think she is.  She is capable, and does NOT need you to be her go-to guy.
 

Committing her to a big loan is a terrible idea.  
 

please reread.  She is going to be a Doctor.  Perhaps you aren't aware  of how hard it is to get accepted by Med schools.  You need not only great grades in all the right subjects  but  a resume of participation beyond school work.  
     Distractions such as getting to and from will hurt her chances.  

 

 

 

My brother in law is a Dr. I am amazed he knows how to fill up his car with gas, he barely knows how to open the gas tank cap. 

He started college locally driving a 5 speed Mazda Protege that I helped him buy for $2000. I spent a whole day teaching him how to drive a manual. 

He then moved to Auburn Uni in Alabama, took that same Protege, faded paint and all. Served him well there. 

Then moved to Tampa to start working at a hospital and do his residency. The Protege died. His dad gave him his old 2003 Honda CR-V which at this point was probably 10 years old. Drove that as he rather throw money into a house downpayment. 

A couple of years ago he moved to Buffalo, NY. He bought a brand new Mazda CX-5. He is 35. 

When he started college he met his girlfriend, now wife. She is a pediatrician and did most of her career with him. She drove a 2004 or so Honda Civic ... used. She still has it. 

Probably my last post here. 

Sounds to me you want to make her indebted to you and your wife so you have a cleaning lady for the rest of your life. 

Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter)
Cousin_Eddie (Forum Supporter) Dork
9/10/22 3:46 p.m.
frenchyd said:
Steve_Jones said:
frenchyd said:

 


   I'm well past retirement age and still working.  In fact now I'm working a full time job and away from home for 11&1/2 hours.  
   

That statement is exactly why she should not take any financial advice from you. 

Don't take my advice.   Fair enough.   I'm currently in the upper 10%  based on income and assets. 
     Really if you don't like working, don't work.   I happen to think it keeps me happy and healthy.   But you may prefer golf or drinking with your buddies. Whatever,  I like the feeling of being needed and helpful to kids.  I regularly get letters and sincere thank you'd from parents on how I deal with their children on the bus.  
     Most SPED drivers require a Para to keep children in line.  I haven't.   

Well if you're that well off just buy her the damn car outright. Then she won't have the stress of worrying about when you're going to die and leave her with lingering debt and no house to clean to earn that payment every month.

 

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