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sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/22/18 8:40 a.m.

First session complete.  Driver headlight trim got loose.  Brakes good.  Rolling onto sidewalls, maybe with the T/A's... cold:

32 front

34 rear

Hit:

43  front

41 rear

Oversprung... needs more front shock

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 8:44 a.m.

Start higher in the front for the next session. 35-36. 

What's the air/track temp? 

How pushy is the car? 

The Accord will tell me I'm overdriving by building too much air pressure/heat. 

Edit to add, I think low/mid 40's is where you'll end up hot, but I still think 32 might be too low to start. Pictures of sidewall? 

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
4/22/18 8:52 a.m.

For seat rails...

Parts: lets call it a "s-bend bracket" and a "flat rail"

They usually sit high like that on the s-bend bracket because when moved all the way back on the flat rail the seat itself sits over the s-portion.  For me, in my typical hyw driving position I either have the seat all the way back or just one notch forward of "all the way back" 

So, just a word of caution so that your possible alteration does not limit the travel of the seat rear-ward.  

Bob, how far back to you typically have a seat?  

 

The Miata answer would be a Foam-ectomy.  With that idea, I went over to www.ca-parts.com and seeked out Sonata seat prices for VA/DC area.  The low end seems to be $75 for a replacement seat.  This could alow you to experiment with foam-ectomy but still leave you with a correct color seat left at home for your DD needs or selling the car after event.  

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/22/18 9:28 a.m.

Pics

Pax above, driver below

I think it was mid50's for that first session

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
4/22/18 9:32 a.m.

Your rolling the heck out of the driver's side!!  So much sidewall scuffing!  

Lots of brake dust too.  

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 10:37 a.m.

Not sure if those tires are just floppy pieces of crap or what. No matter, you absolutely need to go up. The big question is whether you scrubbed far down the sidewalls like that early with the low pressure, generated a crapload of heat and then settled into a more normal roll (which would be the darker scrub to the very ragged edge of the tread blocks. I suspect that's what happened. I'd start at 38 front for the next session, probably 36ish in the rear, see what happens. Get the front sorted and from there adjust the rear to get the feel you need. 

Also, it looks like you're smearing brake compound, so the brakes are getting properly hot. Just watch them closely for wear. I do that with the current compound on the Accord and everything is ok (though I need to go up in heat range) , but that's also what led to the brake failure last year when the pads just smeared off the backing plates. 

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/22/18 10:38 a.m.

64deg

34 front

36 rear  cold

43 front

41 rear   hot

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 10:42 a.m.
sleepyhead said:

64deg

34 front

36 rear  cold

43 front

41 rear   hot

I'd think about going up in front. The 10ish psi is normal, but I still think you'll probably end up closer to 46 hot with the car/tire. Go up until the sidewalls start to act normally or you start to push. Ideally you'd have a pyrometer and try to balance temps with the middle/outside. Inside will always be a lot cooler with your setup. 

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/22/18 11:23 a.m.

Well, my track time is up... time to limp home

John Welsh
John Welsh Mod Squad
4/22/18 11:54 a.m.

Zoiks!  

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 12:26 p.m.

When rally cars do that they make the hood ugly. 

Feedyurhed
Feedyurhed SuperDork
4/22/18 12:42 p.m.

Is that even limpable? (translation: can you even limp home on that?)

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 12:59 p.m.

Spring holds the car up and that is still in place. Figuring out how to not bash a hole in the hood is the issue. Take it off and strap it to the roof?

Dead_Sled
Dead_Sled New Reader
4/22/18 1:11 p.m.

That's limpable if the spring is still supporting the car, and it looks like it is.  You'll probably bend up the hood though.  Had this happen on a brand new strut mount when I neglected to notice the steel washer fell out of one of the strut bellows.  SWMBO neglected to mention the noise until I noticed the hood riding up high.  Original was put back on and made it to 270k before rust killed that car.  Northstar still runs like a top and it has a hitch on it so it still gets used as a pickup/stump puller around the yard, but I'd hate to get in an accident with it.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/22/18 1:22 p.m.

I don't think I ever thought I'd say this, but I'm happy there was lots of traffic on I-95

surprise

Yes, I limped it home.  AFAIK, there's no hole in the hood.  I think the front H&R's are coming out, and hopefully I can get the OEM ones from the shop again.  Need to do some research on '06 vs. '08 top hats... and thinking about whether the TL gets the nod after all (which isn't a cut-and-dry proposition).

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 2:01 p.m.

Curious to see what the shop says about the failure. Also glad it happened now and not on day #1. 

Bob the REAL oil guy.
Bob the REAL oil guy. MegaDork
4/22/18 3:25 p.m.

Upper mount failed spectacularly. 

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 5:47 p.m.

I get that. What I meant was whether this was just a "sometimes these break" thing or a "wrong part for this car" thing or a "I wonder where that one piece is" sort of thing. I'm trying to think of all the upper mounts I've put together and wondering if this sort of failure was even possible.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/22/18 6:04 p.m.
mazdeuce - Seth said:

I get that. What I meant was whether this was just a "sometimes these break" thing or a "wrong part for this car" thing or a "I wonder where that one piece is" sort of thing. I'm trying to think of all the upper mounts I've put together and wondering if this sort of failure was even possible.

This is what it's supposed to look like:

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/22/18 6:06 p.m.

So, I figured a more complete accounting is probably due...

Today was a rough day.

It started off at 5am after 6 hours of disrupted sleep... nerves were very much kicking in like they do each time I try out a car for the first time.  I got the car packed up by 11pm last night.  A little bit of food, some coffee, and a few personal effects... a quick pee for the dog, then out and on the way.

Apparently this is the first time I've driven the Sonata with the GloveBox out, with the headlights on.  There's a light that comes when the headlights are on, and that box is open... which means it's always on now.  I should probably think about figuring that out.  I made it down to Dominion right at around 7am.  I did some checks on the car, registered, and got it through Tech Inspection.

In the course of getting ready for the first, I realized that at somepoint in the last 24hour hours, I'd dropped my phone and cracked its screen.  That's a first for me, in ~6 years of smartphone ownership.  I also figured out that, in trying to fix my DSLR camera, that I managed to superglue it into "M" mode.  Which, of all the modes to get stuck in, is probably the best one.  But, still, aggravating.

The first session went pretty well.  As Sonic correctly identified, there's a lot of wheel hop; and the lack of LSD is a liability, w.r.t. overall lap times.  Also, clocking the wheel over for some turns, I can't see the gear indicator... and the transmission will upshift if it decides it needs to (i.e. I don't think the car will let you bang the revlimiter).  It points well, and wiggles around predictably.  Clearly, though, I need to raise the tire pressures.

It's tough to know how fast it is, since I was romping around on the BFG T/A's... and the springs were knocking the front end jarringly around over all track bumps.  I was faster than an NB miata with a pretty new Intermediate driver, but was getting caught by a NA1 miata with a more competent driver.  One Instructor indicated that the track bumps have gotten worse since last year. 

I'd been keeping an eye on the uppermounts, because I'd misunderstood them earlier when assembling the strut/spring with the cut bumpstops.  Still, though, I didn't see the failure until after getting lunch.

Yes, I drove it back.  Yes, I was cautious.  Yes, I saw the hood flare up a few times.  Yes, these H&R's crash too much for road imperfections... heck track imperfections.  Never mind track-curbs.  I think this car is going to be an extended lesson in the limitations of "cheap suspension" setups.

The Good news:
New Upper Mounts are only about $30/side.  And, I'm almost starting to get good at doing the swap.  As I said though, I think the front H&R springs are too much for the car.  And, doing some reading around, it looks like the "B4 OE" Bilstein's aren't re-valve-able.

I think, if I'd had this happen to me way back in October of last year, I'd've probably gone looking around for making custom upper mounts that did the job of lowering.  But, I think that's out, for now.... especially since I'd want to think through what would happen to the upper a-arm lowering it this way, and if there was anything to do to try and keep it more level.

So far as I can tell... {knock on wood} ...it's not leaking anymore.

The G-Loc's are good.  I dunno if I'll get the chance to run cooling ducts for them, though.

If I soften up the suspension, and fix both upper shock mounts... theoretically it'll be "good to go" for 4000miles... and I can drive around the difficulty of the softness of the suspension and lack of LSD on-track.

Outward Impressions:
People are surprised, and interested about the Sonata being at/on the track.  Some people "get it"... but, one person was quizzing me about the lack of GloveBox and Radio.

The Decision Challenge:
The TL is currently "out of inspection"... it needs an oil change, and an A/C recharge.  I can fit the Optima wheels on the back, but the Genesis wheels need a spacer to fit over the front calipers... which probably means longer studs.  Also, I should probably swap in the Koni STR shocks.

If that is the way to go, I probably need to make that decision Right Frelling Now.  The part of me that got stuck thumbing a ride back in 2015 is ringing a bell that I'm in danger of doing that again... and it might not help that I was wearing my "Extended Lateral Motorsports" shirt, which I acquired because of the experience that year.  I'm a suspicious enough that that shirt's going to get washed and then shoved into the back of the dresser for at least a month.

I think, the thing for me, right now... is to sleep on it; check with the shop about the OEM springs, and then go from there.  Theoretically Eibach's can be ordered from TireRack and get to Indy in time for swap before the drive up to SouthBend.  It's possible the OEM springs will mitigate fitment issues with the 245/R18's et35 Genesis wheels... so this all might be moot.

mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/22/18 6:53 p.m.

The glove box highlights the fact that you're being surprised by things. That's not good. I know you're busy and that there are WAY more important things in life than this car, but you need some miles, some familiarity with the car so that you know what's "weird". You need a baseline. If I'm correct you have a direct correlation between car familiarity and ease of the event. Daily drivers are drama free, cars that get finished the night before go home and you get a free t-shirt. 

Edit: I just want to add that your experience with the Miata, and my experience last year with brakes is a big driver behind my decision to have the Accord sitting home ready to go, just in case.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/23/18 6:42 a.m.
mazdeuce - Seth
mazdeuce - Seth Mod Squad
4/23/18 6:49 a.m.

So if that's really him, and he really shows up, what are the chances that it's just a nice low key operation. cheeky

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/23/18 7:50 a.m.

In reply to mazdeuce - Seth :

I really don't know.  I know the name, and know it enough to associate it with motorcycles...

but, I really grew up knowing names like Steve Wittman, Jackie Cochran, and Admiral Farragut.

sleepyhead
sleepyhead Dork
4/23/18 10:24 a.m.

So, in the immortal {albeit updated} words of Admiral Farragut:

"{Frell} the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!"

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