Junghole
Junghole SuperDork
9/16/21 8:35 p.m.

And I guess it was Volvo only. Thinking about the difficulties of smashing one into an NC Miata, since it too has a duratec LF engine. Anyone tried this? What I wouldn't want is to have the Ford ranger transmission. It would have to stay with the Miata transmission. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/16/21 8:50 p.m.

There is not a Duratec five cylinder the way you are thinking.

 

The generation of Focus RS before the one sold in the US had the same low compression, high boost 2.5l 5 cylinder engine as in my S60R.  Ford called that a Duratec.  I can guarantee you that it shares absolutely nothing mechanically with the Mazda designed four cylinder engine.  Or the Ford designed six cylinders, for that matter.  Ford just put the Duratec label on it the same way that GM slaps a Vortec label on any engine in a truck.

 

An aside?  The RS had the same basic engine, but a different turbo to clear the firewall, and 50 more horsepower, in a FRONT wheel drive application.  The S60R has been front drive only for about a month or so due to the differential module not liking my having to ford a flooded street to get home, and my wallet is currently spongy and bruised.  296hp/295ft-lb is far too much for two wheels. The turbo wakes up and the tires blow away even at light throttle.  I cannot imagine more power, in the Mazda3/Volvo S40 chassis that the FoRS in question used.  Watching reviews of the car suggested that it was near undrivable even with the fancy torque vectoring diff and Revo knuckles.  No wonder the next generation had a smaller, softer-hitting engine and all wheel drive.

Junghole
Junghole SuperDork
9/16/21 10:23 p.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

So you're saying it won't fit... well, I have wasted an evening. 

gumby
gumby GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/16/21 10:39 p.m.

He didn't say it won't fit. He said it isn't related to the other Duratecs beyond the nameplate.

Also, it won't mate to your stock trans.

But don't give up yet, there are RWD trans options! And whiteblocks can make really good power. Would be interesting in a Miata for sure.

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/17/21 2:37 a.m.

Also it won't fit.  smiley  Not without a massive amount of work.  The engine is fairly tall in all the important ways due to the ladder frame design, the oil pan has a maze of internal oil passages, and the oil filter, right where you need there to be no oil pan in order to have a hope of clearing the rack, the camshafts are very small and no hope of making them bigger thanks to the cylinder head "cover" design, which means turbo required if you want to make power, and the turbo manifolds all point the turbo the wrong way and place the turbo halfway over the bellhousing face... and the exhaust manifold bolt pattern is not symmetrical, so you can't just flip it over.  The cam position sensors also stick a fair amount past the back of the engine, too.

 

So in short, it makes less power than a 2.5 or even a 2.0 MZR naturally aspirated, and a turbo would require more work than just putting a turbo on the 2 liter.  None of the installation problems are insurmountable but there is no real payoff for it.

 

The only easy transmission option is a fairly hard to find automatic.  Manual transmission wise, you'll be spending acres of money for hard to find parts and an adaptor so you can graft in... a Borg-Warner T5, which is kind of a garbage trans and almost as expensive to buy used as new.  Maybe because it is so hard to find a used trans that isn't blown up.

gumby
gumby GRM+ Memberand Dork
9/17/21 6:40 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

Dang, hater! 
 

I owned a couple of these engines at one point. A HPT and an LPT. Along with a cut down 6cyl rear sump pan, an 850 single mass flywheel, bell adapter, exhaust flanges to build a custom turbo manifold, etc etc. 
I traded it all away before ever installing it in a vehicle for a bunch of 200" Ford i6 parts. That pile of i6 parts is scheduled to leave my possession tomorrow, also never having been installed in a vehicle. I might have issues....

Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter)
Pete Gossett (Forum Supporter) GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
9/17/21 8:36 a.m.

In reply to gumby :

Hey, at least you get rid of stuff you're not gonna use. 

iansane
iansane HalfDork
9/17/21 10:28 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

You can flip the turbo itself on the manifold so it points the correct direction for a RWD setup. Also, the t5 trans setup isn't the greatest but not too terrible. There's also a ~$550 adapter for a cd009 6 speed if thats your thing. It IS a ridiculously tall engine though. Barely fits in my e30 with subframe spacers and a mod'd crossmember.

No real payoff!? What about the glorious sound of a turbo 5 cyl?!

Junghole
Junghole SuperDork
9/17/21 11:39 a.m.

In reply to iansane :

Kinda the only reason I mentioned it. The glorious sound, and the weirdness in a Miata would be cool. I knew there would be hurdles, but not the giant, concrete walls Pete mentions. Thanks to all for the info. 

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/17/21 12:00 p.m.
iansane said:

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

You can flip the turbo itself on the manifold so it points the correct direction for a RWD setup. Also, the t5 trans setup isn't the greatest but not too terrible. There's also a ~$550 adapter for a cd009 6 speed if thats your thing. It IS a ridiculously tall engine though. Barely fits in my e30 with subframe spacers and a mod'd crossmember.

No real payoff!? What about the glorious sound of a turbo 5 cyl?!

If you use the stock manifold, there is no glorious sound.  You need a 5-1 header for that.  The stock manifold is like a 3-1-1 divided thing, at least on the K24 type unit.  (Yeah, 1,2,3 share one "port" at the outlet)

You can't do a turbo flip on the K24 manifold, either, the turbo and manifold have studs in places that can't be changed, due to design.  Don't know about the really early ones.  The S40 chassis cars have unified turbo and manifold, too...

 

Believe me, I have given it a lot of thought given the collection of B5254T5 and B5255T4 spoor I have... um... collected.  But the engine seems to really want to be transverse.

 

it would probably fit fine in my Quantum, aside from not having room to put a radiator.  Anybody make a whiteblock to 016 adaptor? laugh

iansane
iansane HalfDork
9/17/21 12:49 p.m.
Pete. (l33t FS) said:

You can't do a turbo flip on the K24 manifold, either, the turbo and manifold have studs in places that can't be changed, due to design.  Don't know about the really early ones.  The S40 chassis cars have unified turbo and manifold, too...

Yeah, the turbo/manifold did that weird thing where each have two studs facing opposite, wtf was that for? I ended up pulling the studs. It's been awhile, so I can't remember which two I drilled out. The turbo flange or the manifold flange so I could use a nut/bolt. There is NOT a lot of clearance down there. And there may have only been enough clearance to even do that on the earlier engines. Mine is a '98 block I believe. Had to ditch the distributor and convert to coil on plug.

Justjim75
Justjim75 SuperDork
9/17/21 12:56 p.m.

I've had 4 whiteblock powered 5 cyl turbo cars, 2 heavily modified and have dreamt of getting the Euro only m90 (I think?) 5 speed RWD from an s90 and a 5 cyl T5 car and putting them in a Miata. 

Or taking a 5 speed tranaxle 5cyl turbo front drive and bolt the whole thing, subframe and all to the back end of something light for rear engine rear drive shenanigans.   I'm thinking with enough rubber it might be a good Challenge recipe

Pete. (l33t FS)
Pete. (l33t FS) MegaDork
9/17/21 8:19 p.m.

In reply to Justjim75 :

I have dreams of shimming a four cylinder block and setting the rods and pistons from an S60R engine in there.  Yes, this will require heavy deck milling to handle the shorter stroke.  (2.5-3mm?)  Audi people have done crazier things smiley

Attach to a transmission, probably M66, rotate the angle gear 180 degrees and run it through a heavily notched oil pan.  Bam, mid engine AWD drivetrain.

But I am cheap, and I have discovered that it takes about $300-400 in bolts to reassemble an engine after machine work has been done, and THAT is the part that turns me off.  There are a lot of single use fasteners, and unlike most engines, they really are single use.

 

My eight month whiteblock repair/rebuild/replace saga begins here

Justjim75
Justjim75 SuperDork
9/18/21 12:43 a.m.

In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :

The problem with being a lover of the 5cyl turbo whiteblock is most often its the part of the Volvo that's dead for good

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