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Keith
Keith GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
1/22/10 12:09 a.m.

I said "current Corvette", by which I mean the 2010. The curb weight for a 2010 Corvette convertible, according to Chevrolet themselves, is 3221 lbs. The current Z06 is 3175.

Now, I did cheat a bit. I was using Elvis as the Miata example. He's got an LS1, which is a bit lighter than the LS3. And he wasn't fitted with AC at the time he weighed in at 2500. There's probably 75 lbs of difference there, which drops the weight differential between the two convertibles to about 650 lbs.

I have a 1997 Miata with an LS3, AC, leather and all the luxo trim at the shop right now. I'll weigh it tomorrow. It has 25 hp less than the Z06

joey48442
joey48442 SuperDork
1/22/10 12:28 a.m.

That would be cool. Again, I didn't realize you meant an 02 miata. I thought you meant 02 vette....

Joey

CarKid1989
CarKid1989 HalfDork
7/15/10 8:19 a.m.
Woody wrote:

If you take this, could you 'just' add a complete spec miata roll cage and be like 85% done with a driving car? You would still need to make rear shock mounts and tie it into the frame and you still need to tie in front end some how but in my mind its pretty much there. The cage would be you passenger area obviously, and that is already made up. tie the front and rear subframes into it and you are on the home stretch.

Right?

914Driver
914Driver GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/15/10 8:20 a.m.
Woody wrote: How do I make a Miata look like this?

Send it to my house.

Dan

unevolved
unevolved HalfDork
7/15/10 8:32 a.m.
CarKid1989 wrote: If you take this, could you 'just' add a complete spec miata roll cage and be like 85% done with a driving car? You would still need to make rear shock mounts and tie it into the frame and you still need to tie in front end some how but in my mind its pretty much there. The cage would be you passenger area obviously, and that is already made up. tie the front and rear subframes into it and you are on the home stretch. Right?

You could just add a cage, but you couldn't just order a SM cage and throw it on there. A SM cage doesn't tie into the subframe at all, it doesn't even go forward of the firewall as per the rules.

mndsm
mndsm HalfDork
7/15/10 8:47 a.m.

All I see is tube framed terror. If Keith were to show me a pic of say... Elvis bodyless.... I'd probably have an ms3 for sale.

Soma007
Soma007 Reader
7/15/10 9:10 a.m.
Keith wrote: But the existence and ability of a Miata with the same powertrain that weighs that much less shows that the Corvette should be able to shed some pounds.

Again apples to oranges. You're trying to compare a mass produced vehicle designed to comply with all modern emissions, durability, and crash standards to a Miata with a big engine shoehorned into it potentially done by some random guy in his garage. You're also conveniently leaving out a few advantages a C5/C6 Z06 has over a LSx swapped Miata for the sake of your argument.

Want to compare structural rigidity? Even with the extra bracing a Miata is still not going to be stiffer than a hydroformed steel frame Corvette. How about crash worthiness? In my mind there is no question which car I'd rather be in during a wreck. If nothing else the Vette being bigger puts more room before you and whatever you're hitting.

The extra size also allows the Vette to have bigger wheel wells which allows it to run bigger wheels & tires putting more rubber on the road. Those bigger wheels get you better brakes as well. I personally think the brakes on NA Miata's are crap but even if you call them "decent" they still don't compare to C5/C6 brakes.

How about interior room/comfort? A Corvette isn't exactly spacious inside but being designed for you average American makes it considerably more roomy than a Miata. I'm only 5'6" and I still get cramps and back ache's if I drive my '94 Miata more than an hour or two.

Jason

mndsm
mndsm HalfDork
7/15/10 9:26 a.m.
Soma007 wrote:
Keith wrote: But the existence and ability of a Miata with the same powertrain that weighs that much less shows that the Corvette should be able to shed some pounds.
Again apples to oranges. You're trying to compare a mass produced vehicle designed to comply with all modern emissions, durability, and crash standards to a Miata with a big engine shoehorned into it potentially done by some random guy in his garage. You're also conveniently leaving out a few advantages a C5/C6 Z06 has over a LSx swapped Miata for the sake of your argument. Want to compare structural rigidity? Even with the extra bracing a Miata is still not going to be stiffer than a hydroformed steel frame Corvette. How about crash worthiness? In my mind there is no question which car I'd rather be in during a wreck. If nothing else the Vette being bigger puts more room before you and whatever you're hitting. The extra size also allows the Vette to have bigger wheel wells which allows it to run bigger wheels & tires putting more rubber on the road. Those bigger wheels get you better brakes as well. I personally think the brakes on NA Miata's are crap but even if you call them "decent" they still don't compare to C5/C6 brakes. How about interior room/comfort? A Corvette isn't exactly spacious inside but being designed for you average American makes it considerably more roomy than a Miata. I'm only 5'6" and I still get cramps and back ache's if I drive my '94 Miata more than an hour or two. Jason

This reminds me of the arguement I had once with a friend of mine as to whether or not a Miata could be built to outdo a c5 z06, for the same price as said z06. I decided it could be done, he decided I was an idiot. He bought a z06 though.... so the gauntlet has been thrown as it were.

D'ya s'pose stripping said miata down to the subframes, adding a motor, and enough bracing to make it go would be cheating? I mean... I STARTED with a Miata, and we're talking about using one to beat a z06.....

Soma007
Soma007 Reader
7/15/10 11:15 a.m.

How about you just stick a Miata badge on one of these?

mndsm
mndsm HalfDork
7/15/10 11:50 a.m.
Soma007 wrote: How about you just stick a Miata badge on one of these?

If that started as a Miata, and you know where I can get a turnkey for 22k (The price paid for said z06)- it's on.

unevolved
unevolved HalfDork
7/15/10 12:09 p.m.

I'm with you, a Miata can definitely outrun a Z06 for the same price. Shoot, if all goes according to plan, I'd be willing to put our Nismospeed Miata up against a C5 Z06, and that's only a $2010 car.

mndsm
mndsm HalfDork
7/15/10 12:15 p.m.
unevolved wrote: I'm with you, a Miata can definitely outrun a Z06 for the same price. Shoot, if all goes according to plan, I'd be willing to put our Nismospeed Miata up against a C5 Z06, and that's only a $2010 car.

Bring it to MN, and it's on like donkey kong. Kid is cocky enough (And with good reason, he's managed a house and a Vette before the age of 25) that I'd pay to see it.

poopshovel
poopshovel SuperDork
7/15/10 12:16 p.m.

I heart this thread.

mad_machine
mad_machine GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/15/10 12:30 p.m.

I am still confused on the Miata's front suspension. I need some shots. What I do not get, is that depending on what company's website I look at.. it either has shocks in the front or struts.

unevolved
unevolved HalfDork
7/15/10 12:34 p.m.
mndsm wrote:
unevolved wrote: I'm with you, a Miata can definitely outrun a Z06 for the same price. Shoot, if all goes according to plan, I'd be willing to put our Nismospeed Miata up against a C5 Z06, and that's only a $2010 car.
Bring it to MN, and it's on like donkey kong. Kid is cocky enough (And with good reason, he's managed a house and a Vette before the age of 25) that I'd pay to see it.

I've been entertaining the idea of getting the car a little more prepped and applying (auditioning? interviewing?) for the UTCC. I feel like with a proper setup it'd be a terror on a road course. Wheelbase is a little short for the power, but with proper tires (out of reach of our Challenge budget) and a little more suspension development, I think it'd be a good fight.

We'll have to see how the Challenge goes, though.

unevolved
unevolved HalfDork
7/15/10 12:35 p.m.
mad_machine wrote: I am still confused on the Miata's front suspension. I need some shots. What I do not get, is that depending on what company's website I look at.. it either has shocks in the front or struts.

Here's a closeup of our front suspension:

Keith
Keith GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/15/10 1:03 p.m.

Jason, I seem to have hit a nerve It's okay to like different cars, there's no One True Ultimate Vehicle. I was simply noting that it may be possible for the Corvette to lose weight. Heck, the 2006 Miatas have room for much bigger rubber (ours is on 255s, Brian Goodwin runs 295s), are stiffer, have big brakes, etc - and they're only a couple of hundred pounds heavier than the NB. They're also larger inside.

Anyhow...

The Miata has shocks on all four corners, always has. But they're a coil-over-shock design, and most people simply assume that this means struts. So any references you see to Miata struts is simply an error. Heck, there's still a significant portion of the population that thinks the Miata is FWD.

The Miata drivetrain/PPF setup is a long way from being driveable. We took one and built a frame to make it able to run on the dyno, and that took more effort than you'd expect. Could you build a tube frame for it? Definitely, and it's been done. Is it as simple as finding a Spec Miata cage? Not even close.

Putting together a V8 drivetrain the same way (ie, the naked Elvis scenario) - interesting idea. That might be fun to do for our Open House.

Here's what happened in our shop yesterday. These pictures were taken just a couple of hours apart. Nothing was cut or hacked, this car would easily go right back together again. This is the next V8 car, by the way.

Personally, I have a lot of respect for the Z06. I've also seen one demolish a collection of pretty high-end tuner cars. It's possible to beat one with a Miata (the Z06 drivers can't beat us around our local track), but it's not something you're going to do casually.

triumph5
triumph5 Reader
7/15/10 1:06 p.m.

In reply to Grtechguy: Europa

alfadriver
alfadriver GRM+ Memberand Dork
7/15/10 2:44 p.m.
CarKid1989 wrote:
Woody wrote:
If you take this, could you 'just' add a complete spec miata roll cage and be like 85% done with a driving car? You would still need to make rear shock mounts and tie it into the frame and you still need to tie in front end some how but in my mind its pretty much there. The cage would be you passenger area obviously, and that is already made up. tie the front and rear subframes into it and you are on the home stretch. Right?

I almost hate to suggest this, but I've recently dreamed of taking that frame and placing it under a GTV, TI, or Spider- whichever the wheelbase fits best. The TI would be super cool- 60's European styling with modern powertrain/chassis.

Sick, I say.

I also say- where can I get one?

Eric

Keith
Keith GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/15/10 9:02 p.m.

There's one hidden inside every Miata!

joey48442
joey48442 SuperDork
7/17/10 8:33 a.m.
alfadriver wrote:
CarKid1989 wrote:
Woody wrote:
If you take this, could you 'just' add a complete spec miata roll cage and be like 85% done with a driving car? You would still need to make rear shock mounts and tie it into the frame and you still need to tie in front end some how but in my mind its pretty much there. The cage would be you passenger area obviously, and that is already made up. tie the front and rear subframes into it and you are on the home stretch. Right?
I almost hate to suggest this, but I've recently dreamed of taking that frame and placing it under a GTV, TI, or Spider- whichever the wheelbase fits best. The TI would be super cool- 60's European styling with modern powertrain/chassis. Sick, I say. I also say- where can I get one? Eric

There is one at my house...

Joey

nderwater
nderwater Reader
7/17/10 11:04 a.m.
Keith wrote: There's one hidden inside every Miata!

lol, awesome.

Jensenman
Jensenman SuperDork
7/17/10 9:48 p.m.

Having snatched apart Miatas to underpin a Spitfire, an Opel GT, a Jensen Healey and the latest: a super secret project I can attest they come apart easily.

DeadSkunk
DeadSkunk Reader
7/18/10 10:04 a.m.

Jensenman,

How much of the subframes went under the Opel? Or, did you just swap in the the engine and trans? I've been wondering how easy it would be to build a Miata GT by putting as much as possible of the mechanicals into an Opel.

Keith
Keith GRM+ Memberand SuperDork
7/18/10 1:38 p.m.

Bill at Flyin' Miata is working on a Mopel. It's not a simple thing.

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